phpBB.com Tutorial forum

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phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Meis2M » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:45 pm

Hi

i have a suggestion for phpbb.com board.

phpbb.com have (MOD , MOD in develop... Styles) forums.

and in this board there is not a Tutorial forum.

for example i have many phpbb tutorials. for example add css3 alert box in header, avatar effect ....

how can publish these tutorials? for example adding a tooltip box is not a MOD or style. it is a tutorial article.

i think phpbb.com need a Tutorial forum.
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by tbackoff » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:37 pm

Meis2M wrote:there is not a Tutorial forum
We have a Knowledge Base. Not everything needs a forum... :|
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Meis2M » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:06 pm

yes.
but there is not bbcode button in submit page?
https://www.phpbb.com/kb/submit/

and i think a Tutorial forum is better than KB. users can see better in a certain forum.

we can set a prefix like [Tutorial] before topic title? do you think forum is better?
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by tbackoff » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:38 pm

Yes, phpBB's KB does not have BBCode or smilie buttons, but they still function (you just have to type them in). To answer your question, no, I don't think a forum is better. If you wish to submit a tutorial, it goes in the KB.
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Marshalrusty » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:54 am

I think the problem here is that the interface for the KB could be improved a bit and not that we need a forum instead of (or even worse, in addition to) the knowledge base. On the other hand, the KB doesn't see a flood of new articles, so it is not inconveniencing a great deal of people, and the people who are writing KB articles are probably not doing so directly in the form anyway. We do have a new documentation system in development, which has nicer interfaces, but it is not quite ready for release just yet.
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Pony99CA » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:03 am

One advantage of a Tutorial forum would be that people could ask questions about the changes if they had problems. Right now, you'd have to start a new topic in one of the existing forums and link to the KB article (for context).

Another advantage is that you could subscribe to the forum and see when new articles are posted. Another user and I gave feedback suggesting notification on new KB articles, but I don't believe that anything was done.

I think that a Tips & Tricks/Tutorial forum is a good idea. If you want to review submissions, make the forum force moderation. You could even turn replies off if you really wanted to make it like the KB, but I think that's a bad idea.

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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by tbackoff » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:23 pm

The new KB will be much more friendlier than the current one. As for notifications, I don't see an option for subscribing to the KB, but I also don't know the inner workings (I haven't looked at the code for some time).
Pony99CA wrote:You could even turn replies off if you really wanted to make it like the KB, but I think that's a bad idea.
Forums are for discussion. If we were to implement this and leave replies on, I would imagine most of the replies would be "thanks", "awesome post", etc (of course, everyone could collectively agree not to do that and surprise me :P ). The point is, much time has been put in the new system, I don't think we are just going to abandon it. Also, how many times have you seen someone post here on the forums that they have a problem with one of the articles?
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Pony99CA » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:15 pm

t_backoff wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:You could even turn replies off if you really wanted to make it like the KB, but I think that's a bad idea.
Forums are for discussion. If we were to implement this and leave replies on, I would imagine most of the replies would be "thanks", "awesome post", etc (of course, everyone could collectively agree not to do that and surprise me :P ).
We don't get a lot of those here, do we? There's an occasional thanks to people who answer a question, but that's about it. (I don't follow the MOD forum much, so maybe things are worse there.)
t_backoff wrote:The point is, much time has been put in the new system, I don't think we are just going to abandon it.
First, I didn't know that there was a new KB being planned. Was that announced somewhere? Is there a new feature list? After suggesting that it would be possible to add notifications to the KB in response to the linked suggestions in my last post here, I never heard anything more about KB changes.

Second, if using a forum is "better" than having an improved KB, why not abandon the KB? (I'm not saying that it iis better as I haven't seen the new KB -- see the previous point. ;)) Not wanting to throw out work is rarely a good justification for not doing things better. (In fact, some people say that you should do something once, throw it out, then do it again because your second attempt will often be much better than your first. ;))
t_backoff wrote:Also, how many times have you seen someone post here on the forums that they have a problem with one of the articles?
Not many, but there could be other questions, too. For example, the "anti-spam" sticky post in the Support Forum seems like it should be a KB article. So why is it in the forum? (I know it's not so people can discuss it -- it's locked -- so there's a link to another topic for discussion. :roll: That always seemed silly -- why not allow discussion of those posts?) But the point is that people do want to discuss things similar to KB articles.

Plus, if a new phpBB release came out that changed the instructions for the KB article, the original author could presumably edit the first post without having to submit a revised article.

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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Marshalrusty » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:05 am

At the moment, the lack of a commenting feature in the KB is "by design". The Support Forum is the place to ask questions, and some of those questions may be answered with KB articles. Follow-up questions should be posted in the support topics. It will be a complete mess if multiple users start asking different questions in the same topic.

KB articles are not like MODs. That is to say, it is not up to the author of the article to provide all support for the article.

The one capacity for which I could see commenting being useful is feedback (to let the author know of potential improvements, etc.) with a nice large disclaimer saying "ask questions in a support topic", but I have a feeling that this would still be a mess.

Totally open to constructive suggestions on this.
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by tbackoff » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:45 am

Yuriy addressed what I was trying to get across. I, too, am open to constructive suggestions on this.
Pony99CA wrote:First, I didn't know that there was a new KB being planned. Was that announced somewhere? Is there a new feature list?
No, this was never announced, mostly because it's still under development. In fact, I haven't played with it for some time so I couldn't even begin to tell you where it stands. As for a feature list, one doesn't exist yet (see my first sentence).
Pony99CA wrote:After suggesting that it would be possible to add notifications to the KB in response to the linked suggestions in my last post here, I never heard anything more about KB changes.
I just want to assure you that your posts do not go unnoticed. While we may not address them publicly, discussions do happen in private when a community member raises a valid point.
Pony99CA wrote:Not wanting to throw out work is rarely a good justification for not doing things better. (In fact, some people say that you should do something once, throw it out, then do it again because your second attempt will often be much better than your first. ;))
Which is what we are doing here. The new system does not share any of the same code that is currently used.
Pony99CA wrote:For example, the "anti-spam" sticky post in the Support Forum seems like it should be a KB article. So why is it in the forum?
That was a Support Team decision and I will let them address that.
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Pony99CA » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:04 am

t_backoff wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:Not wanting to throw out work is rarely a good justification for not doing things better. (In fact, some people say that you should do something once, throw it out, then do it again because your second attempt will often be much better than your first. ;))
Which is what we are doing here. The new system does not share any of the same code that is currently used.
I left out an important piece in the above -- you never release the first version. It's a prototype to prove how things might work. So the current development of KB 2.0 would be the first version of the new KB. ;)

And not everybody agrees with that philosophy (I don't totally agree with it, even), especially if you have tight deadlines. As phpBB has no deadlines, that's moot. :lol:

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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Christian 2.0 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:51 pm

t_backoff wrote:mostly because it's still under development. In fact, I haven't played with it for some time so I couldn't even begin to tell you where it stands.
I did some brief work on the new KB system interface way back in late 2010/early 2011. At that stage the 'documentation team' were beginning to copy articles over to it (although Yuriy seemed to be the only person actually doing anything on it).

I'm not trying to cause any trouble here, but the facts are clear. There has been talk of a new phpBB swag shop since early 2010 which was mostly developed and then stopped. The new KB system was mostly developed in 2010 and seems to have stopped, I understand titania was in 'dicsussion' for several years before that was finally released. Even the BBCode extention for titania took well over a year to come to fruition and even then it wasn't a team member (at the time) who did a lot of the work. Now since Amsterdam there's been talk of a new 'suggestions' system. All of that is before we even get onto 3.1 which as we all know already will be significantly outdated when it's released.

Basically it is not enough for phpBB Team members to continually say 'we are working on xyz' and avoid the initial question / suggestion when the solution nearly always doesn't happen.

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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Erik Frèrejean » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:54 pm

I'd actually be in favour of this as a temporarily solution, the current KB is underused and hidden far out of sight of most users. Introducing a forum would immediately make the tutorials a lot easier to find and as an additional advantage it will indicate whether users actually are willing to write tutorials. (If that is the case they can easily be converted to the "new" KB whenever that eventually gets public)
Christian 2.0 wrote:Basically it is not enough for phpBB Team members to continually say 'we are working on xyz' and avoid the initial question / suggestion when the solution nearly always doesn't happen.
Quoted for agreement.
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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by AndroidOS » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:11 pm

First of all, I don't want to get involved in an argument that may start soon..

However, I agree that the KB does need revamping, however I do not think we need a forum for it. As others have said, that would encourage people to ask questions in tutorial threads, which is not the idea of a tutorial. If we were to lock the tutorial threads, then it would basically be a KB, would it not? So, yes an update to the KB would be appreciated, but not as forum. Not in my opinion anyway.

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Re: phpBB.com Tutorial forum

Post by Pony99CA » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:00 pm

AndroidOS wrote:I agree that the KB does need revamping, however I do not think we need a forum for it. As others have said, that would encourage people to ask questions in tutorial threads, which is not the idea of a tutorial.
Really? Have you ever taken a class taught by a live person that was described as a "tutorial"? If so, did the teacher refuse to take questions?
AndroidOS wrote:If we were to lock the tutorial threads, then it would basically be a KB, would it not?
More or less, with two significant differences -- they would show up in the board search results and, if the topics didn't allow replies (as opposed to actually locking the topics), the author could easily update the tutorial without having to resubmit it.

Honestly, I'm perplexed by the antipathy toward questions and discussions. For example, phpBB.com Announcements don't allow comments, so if the author actually wants comments, they start a separate topic for discussion instead of just allowing discussion in the Announcement topic. That seems silly. Allow replies by the default and just lock the topic if you don't want replies. (If replies show up in the Atom feeds, then maybe I can understand it a little better, but I recall things being done this way before feeds were implemented.)

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