[Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by kinerity » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:20 pm

Will patch files also still be provided?
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by Pond Life » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:53 pm

DavidIQ wrote:Just as in 3.0, there will still be an update package that will merge code changes with the upgraded-to version.
Thank you David, that is good news. I don't plan on making many changes, if any, but if I do it's good to know that I won't have to redo them after every update. :D
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by MichaelC » Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:42 pm

For those of you who can't wait until tomorrow (1 day and 18 minutes to go), we've just deployed the 3.1 demo so you can try it out: https://www.phpbb.com/demo/
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by arod-1 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:07 pm

DavidIQ wrote:Just as in 3.0, there will still be an update package that will merge code changes with the upgraded-to version.
this sounds wrong. especially if this "update package" will use the same syntax as current mods do (which is the syntax of 3.0 "update" files).

why would you want to do that?
with 3.0, practically every board admin had to meddle with the source files, and this meddling used the "mod" syntax, so it made perfect sense to distribute new versions as "diffs", using the same structure as the mods.

in 3.1, the mod syntax can be put to rest - it's not used anywhere. typical board admin should never even have to look at the core code, let alone modify it.

anyone who does modify the core code should be considered to be a programmer (or if you prefer the word, "developer"). these people already have an excellent tool to merge local changes with project changes - it's called "git".
no sane programmer/developer uses the byzantine "update" files - why use a laborious, error-prone, manual process when a totally automated one, which is practically error-free is available? (git merge might run into conflicts which require manual resolution, but it's very rare for it to do the wrong thing without giving the user any indication. it's not impossible, but it *is* extremely rare).

of course, the team can do whatever it wants, including continuing to distribute those "update" files. however, IMO, they shouldn't. it will be much better to write a clear and easy to follow document explaining how to use git to maintain local changes and keep your local repo (with your local changes) synchronized with the master repo. anyone who want to use local modification to core code can use such instructions, and the rest of us will simply copy every new release on top of the old one - something that's expected to become eventually semi automatic ("one-click upgrade").

peace.

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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by Phillip » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:22 pm

MichaelC wrote:For those of you who can't wait until tomorrow (1 day and 18 minutes to go), we've just deployed the 3.1 demo so you can try it out: https://www.phpbb.com/demo/
The demo is pretty cool, I'm excited for the release of Ascraeus. :)
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by DavidIQ » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:57 pm

arod-1 wrote:
DavidIQ wrote:Just as in 3.0, there will still be an update package that will merge code changes with the upgraded-to version.
this sounds wrong. especially if this "update package" will use the same syntax as current mods do (which is the syntax of 3.0 "update" files).

why would you want to do that?
with 3.0, practically every board admin had to meddle with the source files, and this meddling used the "mod" syntax, so it made perfect sense to distribute new versions as "diffs", using the same structure as the mods.

in 3.1, the mod syntax can be put to rest - it's not used anywhere. typical board admin should never even have to look at the core code, let alone modify it.

anyone who does modify the core code should be considered to be a programmer (or if you prefer the word, "developer"). these people already have an excellent tool to merge local changes with project changes - it's called "git".
no sane programmer/developer uses the byzantine "update" files - why use a laborious, error-prone, manual process when a totally automated one, which is practically error-free is available? (git merge might run into conflicts which require manual resolution, but it's very rare for it to do the wrong thing without giving the user any indication. it's not impossible, but it *is* extremely rare).

of course, the team can do whatever it wants, including continuing to distribute those "update" files. however, IMO, they shouldn't. it will be much better to write a clear and easy to follow document explaining how to use git to maintain local changes and keep your local repo (with your local changes) synchronized with the master repo. anyone who want to use local modification to core code can use such instructions, and the rest of us will simply copy every new release on top of the old one - something that's expected to become eventually semi automatic ("one-click upgrade").

peace.
I guess you haven't actually used our download packages? There are a few methods of updating. Doing the traditional "diff" is just one of them and those in the situation where they've changed core code should know that is the update path they'll need. The rest would either just use the changed files update package or download the entire code set and replace their files. Not sure I see or understand how this is a bad thing... :?:

Also your model assumes that those doing these changes know how to use git and in probably 90% of the cases the board administrators actually don't (they're not developers in most cases) so this update method you've suggested is not only very cumbersome for a large portion of our users but also unrealistic to expect them to learn how to do this.

Thankfully many will just follow the "upload changed files and use the database update script" approach and won't have to worry about the file differentiating method, which worked rather well.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by Cryo » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:47 am

MichaelC wrote:For those of you who can't wait until tomorrow (1 day and 18 minutes to go), we've just deployed the 3.1 demo so you can try it out: https://www.phpbb.com/demo/
Thanks for the live demo :ugeek:

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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by P_I » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:36 am

Thanks to all involved in bring us this release, the developers, the testers, the translators and anyone else I've missed.

The board needs another smilie!
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by arod-1 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:03 pm

DavidIQ wrote: I guess you haven't actually used our download packages? There are a few methods of updating. Doing the traditional "diff" is just one of them and those in the situation where they've changed core code should know that is the update path they'll need. The rest would either just use the changed files update package or download the entire code set and replace their files. Not sure I see or understand how this is a bad thing... :?:

Also your model assumes that those doing these changes know how to use git and in probably 90% of the cases the board administrators actually don't (they're not developers in most cases) so this update method you've suggested is not only very cumbersome for a large portion of our users but also unrealistic to expect them to learn how to do this.
it does not seem you actually understood what i said.
so i'll rephrase:
first, i admit i did not use the update packages - i always used the source-control way - first cvs, then subversion, and finally git.

however, i am aware that the "update" packages are published in both "diff" format, as well as the archaic "mod" format.
since you said phpbb will "continue" to publish the update packages, i assume you meant continuing to do so both as diff and as "mod". my comment was that doing it in "mod" format seems wrong.
as to "diff" format: to use this, one needs to utilize the "patch" utility (at least as far as i know). "patch" is annoying, unforgiving, and has no reasonable way to handle conflicts.
i cannot think of a single good reason to use "patch" when a perfectly good git repository is available..

as to your comment: "
Also your model assumes that those doing these changes know how to use git and in probably 90% of the cases the board administrators actually don't (they're not developers in most cases)
"
of course 90% of board admins do not want to use git.
those 90% should never modify any core file. what i said is, if anyone wants or needs to actually touch any of the core code, they should be considered "programmers" or "developers", and can be expected to master the tools of the trade.
the difference from current practice, of course, is that with 3.0, anyone who wanted even a single mod *had to* modify the core code, programmer or not, so distributing updates in "mod" format made sense.
this is not the case with 3.1, and continuing to do so does not make sense any more.


peace.

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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by Pond Life » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:20 pm

arod-1 wrote:as to your comment: "
Also your model assumes that those doing these changes know how to use git and in probably 90% of the cases the board administrators actually don't (they're not developers in most cases)
"
of course 90% of board admins do not want to use git.
those 90% should never modify any core file. what i said is, if anyone wants or needs to actually touch any of the core code, they should be considered "programmers" or "developers", and can be expected to master the tools of the trade.
Who are you to tell me what I should or should not do with my copy of open source software?

DavidIQ is correct in my case, I am not a developer/programmer, I have never used git and see no reason why I should have to spend time learning it just because I want to make a few small changes to MY copy of the software.

I asked about the update method purely for information, so I would know if I had to redo my edits after each update, not to demand that the merge files option be included. I am happy and grateful to the team for continuing to support the existing update method.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by DavidIQ » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:30 pm

arod-1 wrote:
DavidIQ wrote: I guess you haven't actually used our download packages? There are a few methods of updating. Doing the traditional "diff" is just one of them and those in the situation where they've changed core code should know that is the update path they'll need. The rest would either just use the changed files update package or download the entire code set and replace their files. Not sure I see or understand how this is a bad thing... :?:

Also your model assumes that those doing these changes know how to use git and in probably 90% of the cases the board administrators actually don't (they're not developers in most cases) so this update method you've suggested is not only very cumbersome for a large portion of our users but also unrealistic to expect them to learn how to do this.
it does not seem you actually understood what i said.
so i'll rephrase:
first, i admit i did not use the update packages - i always used the source-control way - first cvs, then subversion, and finally git.

however, i am aware that the "update" packages are published in both "diff" format, as well as the archaic "mod" format.
since you said phpbb will "continue" to publish the update packages, i assume you meant continuing to do so both as diff and as "mod". my comment was that doing it in "mod" format seems wrong.
as to "diff" format: to use this, one needs to utilize the "patch" utility (at least as far as i know). "patch" is annoying, unforgiving, and has no reasonable way to handle conflicts.
i cannot think of a single good reason to use "patch" when a perfectly good git repository is available..

as to your comment: "
Also your model assumes that those doing these changes know how to use git and in probably 90% of the cases the board administrators actually don't (they're not developers in most cases)
"
of course 90% of board admins do not want to use git.
those 90% should never modify any core file. what i said is, if anyone wants or needs to actually touch any of the core code, they should be considered "programmers" or "developers", and can be expected to master the tools of the trade.
the difference from current practice, of course, is that with 3.0, anyone who wanted even a single mod *had to* modify the core code, programmer or not, so distributing updates in "mod" format made sense.
this is not the case with 3.1, and continuing to do so does not make sense any more.


peace.
Sorry my terminology is incorrect. When I said "diff" method I was speaking about the auto-update, which is what we're providing and what does the diff-ing and modifying. Far as I know there is no plan to provide any type of MODX-style file for 3.1 as I'm not aware that we did any such thing for 3.0.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by LavIgor » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:40 pm

arod-1 wrote:of course 90% of board admins do not want to use git.
those 90% should never modify any core file. what i said is, if anyone wants or needs to actually touch any of the core code, they should be considered "programmers" or "developers", and can be expected to master the tools of the trade.
And what can you say about styles?

If non-developers want to make a single edit to change a header or colors, why do you want to force them to create a new style?

I think that style changes should also be possible with edits of prosilver (which is the easiest way for non-developers to customize their boards) and that's why we still need to have automatic update packages.

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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by poplarman » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:18 pm

The new release looks great and is functionally much improved.

I'm having a problem though. Where I can I request support?

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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by KevC » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:22 pm

poplarman wrote:The new release looks great and is functionally much improved.

I'm having a problem though. Where I can I request support?
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB 3.1 Ascraeus is upon us

Post by noth » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:27 pm

yeah and we are heading towards a doubling of traffic on this site 8-) because of this

have you seen the active pages? 17 wow that has not been the case in a long long time :D

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