Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

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Derky
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Derky » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:01 pm

RMcGirr83 wrote:
Derky wrote:Since I know you have a financial background, how does that work for US companies that are not accredited as a non-profit and receive donations; Are you saying they don't have to pay any tax (or some other kind of fee to the government) over those donations? (I guess this might even differ by state?)
Well given the awesomeness that is the IRS Tax Code it....depends.

If someone was to give a company a donation and that donation triggered an equity position (x amount of shares in the organization), then the donation isn't considered taxable income by the corporation. If no equity position it is considered income.

Gifting is usually done individual to individual so not mundane here.

So in this case, unless phpBB is going to start giving out shares of the company, it is considered income, and would count as revenue and, subsequently, be taxable...just as the ad revenue that is generated is considered taxable income.
Thanks for clarifying this. So that also means that if a company receives donations from 1000 different people, it has to add each of those single donations to the book keeping as well right? (including information from who it came)
RMcGirr83 wrote:PS and not for nothing but any team members that are receiving reimbursement for expenses related to phpBB (like the recent Germany thing) MAY have to claim the benefit gained by getting reimbursed. Just because you don't receive a 1099 doesn't forgive you of having to claim the income (which in this case is the reimbursed expense). Of course this may or may not apply to your particular country of residence. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/oc_aug_ ... 911_02.pdf As always consult a tax pro if you are ensure.
Ow, hehe. :P

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by JimA » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:12 pm

P_I wrote:I typically hover over links first before clicking them to gain an understanding of where I could be going if I click. If I understand your example correctly, the link I hover over on a phpBB 3,2 forum and the target link that gets opened likely will differ by the potential addition of the referrer ID. Is that correct?
Yes, that is correct. The page content will not change, however. The referrer is only so the affiliate can determine where the link came from.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by RMcGirr83 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:19 pm

Derky wrote:Thanks for clarifying this. So that also means that if a company receives donations from 1000 different people, it has to add each of those single donations to the book keeping as well right? (including information from who it came)
As far as the actual $$$ of the donation, yes (can be done on a monthly basis...just need a schedule) not so sure if the information of whom it came from would matter (paypal tracks this information anyway) but it can't hurt.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by MichaelC » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:35 pm

sakm wrote:I have read this thread from the start and I for one will enable viglink

Although I really don't understand why you can't put a donation link on phpBB.com after all there is extensions for it!

I also think it is wrong that viglink is bundled with the software and it should be released as an extension as an option for users to install and enable to support phpBB.

To me its as if you are praying users don't notice that they have to disable it resulting in more funding for phpBB which don't get me wrong would be great for phpBB but users should have the choice to enable it to support phpBB or install the extension.

Also why has this never had a discussion thread to see what the users want? having a discussion about it with the users would have given you a better understanding of what the users want and as to whether they would enable it in the first place.

It's pretty clear by some of the replies that users feel as though this is being pushed upon us rather than an option and yes I know you can disable it and uninstall it but that's not the point!

I would like to see some improvements with viglink being enabled! like some paid staff to help authors with extensions and styles or to make current extensions work with future releases. After all everyone is a volunteer and do this in their spare time so a little support for them wouldn't go amiss.
Hi Sam,

We've mentioned a few times previously about donations and the reasons why we don't have this setup. It's something we've certainly considered many times but decided against on the basis of a few reasons which I'll summarise for you however I would thank you for your kindness and willingness to donate to the project. :)
  • Without being a 501(c) non-profit we would be taxed on any donations income reducing the amount we'd actually receive. We are at the moment looking into whether or not we should change our legal status, after which we may re-evaluate.
  • With every donation there is an amount of work that must be done by phpBB team members in order to reconcile those payments, further to this it adds to the amount of work our accountants have to do each year raising costs. Of course, this would be entirely worth it if all donations were large donations but a large number of small donations could in the end (after taxes, accountant costs and man hours of handling) end up giving us almost no tangible benefit.
  • Whilst this topic has had a great response regarding donations, it's still not obvious that it would raise significant amounts of revenue over longer periods.
  • We would have to pay our lawyers in order to set this up in order to ensure it's water-tight in terms of us ensuring those donating will not receive anything back. Therefore we'd want to ensure we'd get enough back to at least cover our costs.
In summary, it may raise us revenue, however it's not as trivial to organise as it might first appear and would be unlikely to raise nearly as much as something like VigLink could (which doesn't involve people spending anything).


Regarding the 'hoping nobody will notice'; as previously noted, there are a couple of bugs with the current system in that functionality is enabled if you click away from the page and if you use the database update script whilst logged in you're not sent to this page. Both of these things we'll be fixing so that Viglink is never enabled without your express and explicit wish to enable it. The only reason we want to raise more money for the project is so that we can make phpBB a better product to benefit you, our users; so it makes no sense to be sneaky towards you. :)

With regards to what we do with revenue raised, as previously mentioned this all goes back into working on the project for example through things like hackathons where large numbers of team members get together and work on phpBB for a few days (and these have proven to be very successful in the past); and VigLink raising money for the project allows us to keep doing this kind of thing, hopefully more often into the future.
HiFiKabin wrote:Also, as this is an official extension that has been in development for a couple of years (first commit Oct 14) what hasn't it been placed in the 'In Development' forum for discussion prior to it being shipped with 3.2.0?

A suspicious person might think that you were worried about negative feedback making it impossible for you to release it. ;)
Yourself and a number of others have asked why there wasn't a discussion, but that's what we're trying to have here and we're doing it separately from a release (3.2.0 isn't here yet) although we have included it in RC2 in order to test it (and we found a couple of bugs). We didn't create a topic in the extensions in development forum because (1) we often don't create topics for official extensions until they have their initial feature sets and often a release (2) we wanted to be able to explain what the extension was for in a larger open transparent forum (the blog) from the beginning as opposed to hiding it in a topic in the extensions forums.

We initially started internally looking into this with Viglink back in 2014, hence the extension repository has existed for so long but it was only finished very recently (Marc and I finished some bits off together when we were together at the beginning of December) as our partnership with Viglink took both discussions with VigLink about the partnership and the technical implementation to be completed on our side.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Lady_G » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:52 am

P_I wrote:As a phpBB forum owner and admin I'm following this discussion closely. The forums that I'm involved with are strictly non-commercial. My initial reaction to the announcement wasn't positive, it seems very late breaking news for something this important.

That said, on a couple of our sites we also run a wiki using MediaWiki. Their model (best practices?) Comparison of extensions in distributions - MediaWiki is worth reviewing and considering. Bottom line, their distribution contains a number of bundled extensions, however the key to me is that none are enabled by default. If the administrator wants to use one (or more) of the bundled extensions, they have to enable/configure them.

I would go so far as suggesting that going forward all Official Extensions could be bundled into the phpBB Full Package download (similar to MediaWiki's model) as long as they remain disabled by default. Let the site owner/administrator make the decision to enable. Negative option billing just doesn't cut it.

As others have also stated, if phpBB.com provided a mechanism to allow me to contribute financially to defray costs, I'd strongly consider it. I've seen the Wikipedia funding drive messages too and can understand the viewpoint expressed by members of the phpBB team that this model doesn't necessarily work.
I am also familiar with MediaWiki and think P_I's suggestion to provide a package of "Official" extensions is a good one. Viglink would be part of the "Official" bundled release and we can choose to install the extension (or not).
JimA wrote:
P_I wrote:I typically hover over links first before clicking them to gain an understanding of where I could be going if I click. If I understand your example correctly, the link I hover over on a phpBB 3,2 forum and the target link that gets opened likely will differ by the potential addition of the referrer ID. Is that correct?
Yes, that is correct. The page content will not change, however. The referrer is only so the affiliate can determine where the link came from.
I am in the same situation as P_I and several members who've posted in this topic. My site is completely ad-free and we strive to keep it that way. No members of my forum are permitted to post referral links. Period.

The site owners are responsible for its content. If a member discovers that Viglink has inserted a referral code, it is a reflection on my reputation that I did not honor my own board rules.

If phpBB wants monetary support, then simply request a donation during installation.

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by RMcGirr83 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:49 am

MichaelC wrote:Without being a 501(c) non-profit we would be taxed on any donations income reducing the amount we'd actually receive.
You are taxed on any income. Whether that be from ad revenue or whatever. As I have stated before, one doesn't have to be a 501(c) to accept donations unless you want the donor to be able to claim the donation on their tax return and, in fact, I don't even think phpBB falls into any category for the 501c status. https://www.irs.gov/publications/p557/ch04.html
it adds to the amount of work our accountants have to do each year raising costs
By accepting donations?! I am failing to see what this "amount of work" is. You give them a schedule they do the returns...done. Only time the amount of work may change is if the books are audited instead of reviewed or simply compiled. http://www.nonprofitaccountingbasics.or ... ompilation
With every donation there is an amount of work that must be done by phpBB team members in order to reconcile those payments
Reconcile to what and for what purpose?

I think this all is a lot to do about nothing. Accept donations or don't but please stop making excuses where they don't apply.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Derky » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:44 pm

RMcGirr83 wrote:
MichaelC wrote:With every donation there is an amount of work that must be done by phpBB team members in order to reconcile those payments
Reconcile to what and for what purpose?
Well what you said right? That every donation has to be added to the book keeping:
RMcGirr83 wrote:
Derky wrote:Thanks for clarifying this. So that also means that if a company receives donations from 1000 different people, it has to add each of those single donations to the book keeping as well right? (including information from who it came)
As far as the actual $$$ of the donation, yes (can be done on a monthly basis...just need a schedule) not so sure if the information of whom it came from would matter (paypal tracks this information anyway) but it can't hurt.
We don't have everything as automated as you might think. :P

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by HiFiKabin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:47 pm

MichaelC wrote:
HiFiKabin wrote:Also, as this is an official extension that has been in development for a couple of years (first commit Oct 14) what hasn't it been placed in the 'In Development' forum for discussion prior to it being shipped with 3.2.0?

A suspicious person might think that you were worried about negative feedback making it impossible for you to release it. ;)
Yourself and a number of others have asked why there wasn't a discussion, but that's what we're trying to have here and we're doing it separately from a release (3.2.0 isn't here yet) although we have included it in RC2 in order to test it (and we found a couple of bugs). We didn't create a topic in the extensions in development forum because (1) we often don't create topics for official extensions until they have their initial feature sets and often a release (2) we wanted to be able to explain what the extension was for in a larger open transparent forum (the blog) from the beginning as opposed to hiding it in a topic in the extensions forums.

We initially started internally looking into this with Viglink back in 2014, hence the extension repository has existed for so long but it was only finished very recently (Marc and I finished some bits off together when we were together at the beginning of December) as our partnership with Viglink took both discussions with VigLink about the partnership and the technical implementation to be completed on our side.
Q1) The features of phpBB 3.2.0 have been in open discussion for how long?

A1) Ages

Q2) ... and when was the first dev version?

A2) Not quite as long as A1

Q3) ... and how much discussion has there been since then?

A3) Lots and lots and lots

Q4) ... and how much open discussion about VigLink was there prior to it shipping with 3.2.0_rc2?

A4) ZERO, NONE, ZILCH, NADA, NIX

3.2.0 has been 'feature locked' for a very long time. You might argue that VigLink isn't a new feature as it is an extension, but as it is shipped as part of phpBB 3.2.0 most people would consider it to be a feature of 3.2.0.

Discussing it after release is like shutting the stable door after the horse has dropped dead.

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by RMcGirr83 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:10 pm

Derky wrote:We don't have everything as automated as you might think. :P
Well Mozilla accepts donations but to rebut what I said earlier, after further review, it would seem that a company would have to be non-profit to be able to accept donations......like Mozilla (which is different from individuals).

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profi ... anizations

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profi ... tion-501c3

You can convert a for profit to a not-for-profit. Anyway, it was a thought.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Marshalrusty » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:38 pm

RMcGirr83 wrote:You can convert a for profit to a not-for-profit. Anyway, it was a thought.
It's a perfectly reasonable thought, and we are actively looking into it. It doesn't have much to do with the topic on hand, however.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Neculai Anisor » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:45 am

So that's the purpose of that counter on the header isn't it? :D
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by david63 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:22 pm

Something that is confusing me is why does phpBB Limited, which is a UK registered company, need to be a 501(c) company - which, if I understand correctly, is a US company?
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by 3Di » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:46 pm

david63 wrote:Something that is confusing me is why does phpBB Limited, which is a UK registered company, need to be a 501(c) company - which, if I understand correctly, is a US company?
I don't know if that implies that 2 of the 3 active partners there are resident in the USA.

Anyway, here's some Legal clarification about Not-To-Profit Organisations in the UK

phpBB Ltd is actually a Dormant Company at the present time.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by david63 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:56 pm

3Di wrote:I don't know if that implies that 2 of the 3 active partners there are resident in the USA.
That is totally irrelevant - what is relevant is where the company is registered.
3Di wrote:phpBB Ltd is actually a Dormant Company at the present time.
No it's not - if you look at the first link it clearly says " Status Active"
Last edited by david63 on Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by 3Di » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:01 pm

david63 wrote:
3Di wrote:phpBB Ltd is actually a Dormant Company at the present time.
No it's not - if you look at the first link it clearly says " Status Active"
Does that means that the status (SIC) will never change?
SIC.png
Source (Italian Doctor Accountants based in London, UK):
The Dormant Company is incorporated and registered like any other Limited at Companies House but, where temporarily cease to operate, it is recognized as a "dormant"
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