Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

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HiFiKabin
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by HiFiKabin » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:52 am

Ger wrote:<snip>
That seems pretty clear to me. Now this is of course only the Dutch implementation of the cookie directive, but as said before: all EU countries are obliged to implement similar law.

This would bring the need of not only a simple cookie notice, but an affirmative button for the website visitor stating that he or she allows this.
EXACTLY! Our friends on the west side of the pond do not seem to grasp that this is THE LAW!

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by JimA » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:52 am

HiFiKabin wrote:EXACTLY! Our friends on the west side of the pond do not seem to grasp that this is THE LAW!
You might have missed Marc's message on the previous page. We're very well aware of that and certainly not dismissing these concerns, like both Marc and Marshalrusty have already stated before multiple times.

We will look into the cookie tracking issue and where necessary adjust. We're also happy that you guys have brought this up and hopefully will continue to give feedback on what we do. This will help us improve the product and project as a whole which is obviously the overall goal with all this.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by HiFiKabin » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:23 am

TY Jim, I did indeed miss Marc's post. Glad its being taken seriously. I do feel however, that a cookie acceptance is the only way that this can be accepted over here. Remember its all well and good for you (you being phpBB) to investigate and if you think it does not fall inside the cookie law to say that it complies but it is not you that will have to stand up in court and defend it.

Most UK (and I suspect EU) sites have a cookie acceptance box just to make sure they are on the right side of the law. Lawyers are not people I wish to get entangled with, and especially European Court Lawyers

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Ger » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:18 pm

Marc wrote:That page very explicitly states tracking cookies (cookies as in text cookies that are saved in your browser) whereas analytical cookies seem to be exempt. As previously stated, we'll have a look and determine whether a cookie notice needs to be added prior to the final release of 3.2.
JimA wrote:
HiFiKabin wrote:EXACTLY! Our friends on the west side of the pond do not seem to grasp that this is THE LAW!
You might have missed Marc's message on the previous page. We're very well aware of that and certainly not dismissing these concerns, like both Marc and Marshalrusty have already stated before multiple times.

We will look into the cookie tracking issue and where necessary adjust. We're also happy that you guys have brought this up and hopefully will continue to give feedback on what we do. This will help us improve the product and project as a whole which is obviously the overall goal with all this.
It might help to know the exact formulation of the law. For The Netherlands it's here:
Artikel 11.7a Telecommunicatiewet

It's interesting to know that the word "cookie" isn't mentioned once. The bottom line is that you may only gather information and/or store information on the client device with explicit permission from the user. The actual used technique (cookies or Harry Potters wand) doesn't matter.

Analytical cookies (only for statistical information like Google Analytics) are exempt.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB 3.2.0-RC2 Released

Post by Thunderer » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:03 pm

Question:

Why on earth, as end users of the phpbb software, should we have to put up with an extension being bundled with the forum that some of us (myself included) want nothing to do with?

Why can it not be a standalone, choose-to-install-it-yourself extension?

More to the point, can it be deleted from the filesystem and database (if it is included)?

If I want to support the phpbb project, I will do so in a manner of my own choosing, NOT through some extension that creates ads/ad links on a forum that has no desire to include them.

As well as my own, I run several forums for clients, who, I know for a fact, do NOT want adverts (image based or text based) in their forum, or any extension that introduces them, whether active or not.
Last edited by JimA on Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Split posts from the 3.2.0-RC2 release topic into the Viglink discussion topic

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Re: Discuss: phpBB 3.2.0-RC2 Released

Post by david63 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:32 pm

@Thunderer

There is a lengthy discussion about VigLink here

Just one misconception you have with with adverts - VigLink does not add any adverts, it is a referral system.
Thunderer wrote:More to the point, can it be deleted from the filesystem and database (if it is included)?
Yes it can be disabled, data deleted and files removed in the same way as any other extension.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:33 pm

regardless of whether phpbb decides to put up a cookie notice or not, if, as some are saying that it eventually falls into the site owner's lap, then I would suggest that the site owner should be the one responsible.

there are many very simple scripts that anyone can install on any web site that puts up those annoying cookie notices so that your site will be in compliance with whatever you want.

also, it is interesting that phpbb.com does not have such a cookie notice on this site and I believe phpbb.com is based in the UK.

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by david63 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:36 pm

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:regardless of whether phpbb decides to put up a cookie notice or not, if, as some are saying that it eventually falls into the site owner's lap, then I would suggest that the site owner should be the one responsible.
But that predisposes of the fact that the site owner is aware of the situation.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:there are many very simple scripts that anyone can install on any web site that puts up those annoying cookie notices so that your site will be in compliance with whatever you want.
Even a phpBB extension (in development)
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:41 pm

david63 wrote:But that predisposes of the fact that the site owner is aware of the situation.
not really, what is being said here is that all sites have to have a cookie law notice if they use any type of cookies. apparently that is not the way the law is really written but I don't really know.

I believe it is like the case of the Coppa law/notice here in the states.
there was much confusion about it and when you had to apply it etc.

the law actually says that it only applies to commercial sites and then only if the site is targeting children and collecting certain types of personal information, and of course, only in the US.


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Re: Discuss: phpBB 3.2.0-RC2 Released

Post by Thunderer » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:22 pm

david63 wrote:@Thunderer

There is a lengthy discussion about VigLink here

Just one misconception you have with with adverts - VigLink does not add any adverts, it is a referral system.
Thunderer wrote:More to the point, can it be deleted from the filesystem and database (if it is included)?
Yes it can be disabled, data deleted and files removed in the same way as any other extension.
In otherwords and having read the viglink info, you want to sneak, via the backdoor, referral codes into pre-existing and future links that may be published in any post on any forum.

Sorry, but that will not fly with me.

I find the while viglink thing an underhand, low down, dirty way to earn funding for the phpbb project.

If you want funding, ASK FOR IT.

There is no need for underhand, low down, dirty ways to get it which, as far as I can see, this is.

Phpbb has always been about choice. LET US CHOOSE if we want viglink or not by removing it from the bundle and leaving it as a choose-to-install-it-yourself extension.

If this IS bundled with phpbb, then I will quite happily switch to different forum software, irrispective of whether we can uninstall viglink or not, given we should not be forced to remove something we do not want, or ever asked to be included.

Do I still have the wrong end of the stick?

Viglink = inserted referral code = if purchase made on clicked link, you get funding from it.

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Re: Discuss: phpBB 3.2.0-RC2 Released

Post by DavidIQ » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:41 pm

Thunderer wrote:In otherwords and having read the viglink info, you want to sneak, via the backdoor, referral codes into pre-existing and future links that may be published in any post on any forum.
It's hardly sneaking if we're announcing it to the community through a blog post and this discussion topic and it is prominently shown to be available after board upgrade/installation...
Thunderer wrote:If you want funding, ASK FOR IT.
As has been mentioned before, if we asked for funding we would have a giant ugly banner flying here on phpbb.com for weeks, just like Wikipedia does on a regular basis. Their campaigns are normally meant to go on for a few days but end up getting extended because very few people actually donate. We went with the least obtrusive option.
Thunderer wrote:Phpbb has always been about choice. LET US CHOOSE if we want viglink or not by removing it from the bundle and leaving it as a choose-to-install-it-yourself extension.

If this IS bundled with phpbb, then I will quite happily switch to different forum software, irrispective of whether we can uninstall viglink or not, given we should not be forced to remove something we do not want, or ever asked to be included.
Please re-read this topic as you are very misinformed. The tldr; version is: you get the option to enable/disable it right after upgrade through the "Send statistics" page (there seems to be a few bugs with this process that we will be fixing in the next RC) AND can delete it afterwards if you decide you don't want it. It's just like any other extension. You don't even have to go that far. You can just delete it before installation/upgrade and all should be fine.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by JimA » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:44 pm

Thunderer, there's one thing that you seem to fundamentally misunderstand about what's happening here, which David has tried to clear up for you as well already above.

We are all about choice here, nobody is trying to sneak anything in. We specifically built it in such a way that every board administrator upon updating/installing for the first time gets redirected to the screen where they have to make a decision on this. If you in this screen decide to disable the functionality (which is one simple click of a radio button), we will never ask you the question again. We've tried to make this as non-invasive as possible for both admins and users. That's also why we have put it in as an extension rather than putting it in the core. If even disabling the functionality alone doesn't feel right for you, we make it for easy for you to even delete the options (the end result is effectively the same) altogether.
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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by Thunderer » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:18 pm

That still does not answer why it has to be included in the package in the first place.

If we have a choice, which it seems with this we do not, why does phpbb insist on bundling it?

To remove it causes unnecessary work for the admin team.

As far as underhanded goes, yes, it is underhanded as forum members will be unaware of the viglink injection unless and until an admin member informs the forum users by making a post about it. Again, causing more unnecessary work for the admin team.

The knowledge alone would be enough to put some forum members off clicking any links.

Still awaiting the answer of why it has to be bundled (removing initial choice of inclusion) and why phpbb has not recognised the extra, unnecessary work that the removal causes.

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by gotwings » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:48 am

Has the phpBB team considered offering a choice of several different support options to board admins when installing/upgrading phpBB?

For example: (A) Please help support phpBB with a PayPal donation. (B) Please help support phpBB by enabling VigLink. (C) Please help support phpBB by allowing a donation link on your forum's homepage. (D) Insert-latest-support-idea-here. (E) No thanks, I will just be a jerk.

I get it : Those of us who are not contributing to the codebase, or who are not donating monetarily, are (essentially) leeches. Sadly, I'm one of the leeches.... And I'm not offended if someone identifies me as such. I get it. I could/should be doing more (personally; not my users) to support the project.

But wow. Dumping this whole VigLink idea on everyone, without pursuing alternative (and less weird?) support ideas? That is taking me aback a bit.

Have I missed something here? Previous efforts that didn't amount to anything? Naivete on my part?

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Re: Discuss: phpBB to ship with VigLink extension

Post by gotwings » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:06 am

And how strange... The Get Involved page doesn't seem to have any mention of providing monetary support to phpBB.

Is there a reason for that?

Is phpBB a non-profit? I don't see anything about that in a front-and-center location.... If it is, then that could provide tax advantages to donors, at least in some countries.

And if it isn't a non-profit : How about a non-profit "Friends of phpBB" organization?

Sorry, probably all crazy ideas that won't work for one reason or another.... But if so, it would sure be nice if the topic regarding VigLink provided the relevant background.

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