Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

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P_I
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Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by P_I »

Since phpBB 3.2.x provides a responsive default style (prosilver), do the ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings that are related to image dimensions really matter any more?

IIRC Back in the phpBB 3.0.x days,it was important to set maximum image dimensions so that "larger" images didn't require scroll bars to display the image. WIth the responsive design of phpBB 3.2, the software auto-magically resizes images to fit within whatever screen is being used and therefore I'm left to wonder why an administrator would set any limits on the image dimensions in ACP->Post settings.

If the settings still do matter, what are "best practices" for determining appropriate settings? Would something like Desktop Screen Resolution Stats Worldwide | StatCounter Global Stats be useful or are there other web design best practices to be followed?
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by KYPREO »

IMO image sizes don't really matter anymore when they are not hosted locally, other than perhaps from the perspective of bandwidth of the third party host and end user. This can be solved with thumbnails and the lightbox extension. I have image size in ACP>Post settings at 0.

However i believe it does matter for attachments. By imposing resolution limits, plupload will kick in and scale down the image with dramatic file size reduction. On a big board that is image heavy these savings add up.

I don't know about best practice but this was my methodology: I examined the screen sizes my users were using through Google Analytics. Based on my users 1920px wide screens were the largest commonly used. I took that and figured out the maximum image width that would fit in the post window for that size on my style. That worked out to be around 1440px. I used this as my upload limit so that images still fill the post window nicely on desktop displays. With plupload, attachments from smartphone cameras end up on the server as 200-300kb files on average.
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by thecoalman »

P_I wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:13 am Since phpBB 3.2.x provides a responsive default style (prosilver), do the ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings that are related to image dimensions really matter any more?
Allowing such large images in a post goes beyond just being able to display it without a scroll bar. Scaling an image is only part of a well designed page, using appropriate file sizes is also important. You really need to use the thumbnail feature. A 1080 monitor is only effective for images that are about 2MP assuming full screen, once you account for the browser and page space you might be down to something like a 1.5MP image. The file sizes and dimensions on those images can be enormous, 10 images can easily morph into 50 to 100MB's on a single page. This can be problem for users on slow connections, metered connections and even your own server bandwidth limits. The other issue is server space.

As far as the full sized images I have it set at a respectable 2000*20000, keep in mind the behavior of this is quite different with 3.2 over 3.0 because of plupload. The image is resized client side if it exceeds those dimensions,
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by P_I »

Thanks for the inputs and ideas.
KYPREO wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:13 am IMO image sizes don't really matter anymore when they are not hosted locally, other than perhaps from the perspective of bandwidth of the third party host and end user. This can be solved with thumbnails and the lightbox extension. I have image size in ACP>Post settings at 0.
I had thought about this from the bandwidth perspective as well. The sites I'm involved with are generally text based discussions with the occasional chart or diagram used to support the narrative, so we're generally not dealing with photographs and other large files.
KYPREO wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:13 am However i believe it does matter for attachments. By imposing resolution limits, plupload will kick in and scale down the image with dramatic file size reduction. On a big board that is image heavy these savings add up.
Our sites are hosting on a decent shared hosting plan, so we already impose file size limits to manage the Attachments directory size.

The sites started circa early 2005, so connections were much slower back then. Hence our limits were set fairly tight (640 * 480). There have been minor tweaks over the years, but nothing substantial based on the responsive styles (and plupload) that come with phpBB 3.2.

I'm just trying to gain some insight into how much to increase our limits to improve our user experience and as you both have helpfully pointed out, understand what other considerations come into play.

I'd still welcome any further viewpoints/recommendations from others.
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by thecoalman »

P_I wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:33 pm Our sites are hosting on a decent shared hosting plan, so we already impose file size limits to manage the Attachments directory size.
If you set the dimensions you really don't need a file size limit for images because they will all be within X range. X would depend on the dimension.
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by P_I »

I still need the file size limit because we allow other types of attachments (Office file types, PDFs, etc).
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by thecoalman »

P_I wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:58 pm I still need the file size limit because we allow other types of attachments (Office file types, PDFs, etc).
You can set file size limits for specific types of files.

ACP >> Posting >> Manage attachment extension groups >> Click the green gear on extension group.
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by P_I »

Aah, I'd forgotten about those settings because I was only looking at the Attachment settings page in ACP, where it lists maximum file sizes in the top part of the screen as well as the Image Category settings that I'm reviewing in the bottom half.

Although I'm a long time admin, this to me represents on of the challenges of wide choice of settings in ACP and the fact that only basic information is provided in the https://www.phpbb.com/support/docs/en/3 ... _settings/, which essentially just provides the same information as the help text within ACP without greater context, or providing cross-reference to other settings that might apply.

I'm glad I decided to post this and ask, I'm learning more of the nuances. Thank you.
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by P_I »

There are a couple of other settings in ACP->Attachment settings in the "Image category settings" area that I'm now struggling with figuring out how they work in phpBB 3.2.x.

Here are the current settings.
phpBB - Image category settings.JPG
But I'm now confused for the setting
phpBB 3.2 ACP wrote:Minimum thumbnail file size:
Do not create a thumbnail for images smaller than this.
However https://www.phpbb.com/support/docs/en/3 ... _settings/ indicates the setting as
phpBB 3.2 Admin Guide wrote:MAXIMUM THUMBNAIL FILESIZE: Thumbnails will not be created for images if the created thumbnail filesize exceeds this value, in bytes. This is useful for particularly large images that are posted.
Those seem like quite different.

Based on testing some image attachments on my localhost replica, I'm thinking the Admin Guide version is actually correct (I haven't figured out where in the code to check). Am I correct and is this a bug in phpBB 3.2? Or does the use of plupload in the phpBB code render this setting useless?

Or does the setting for Create thumbnail: somehow play a role in how the above setting is applied (or not)?
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by thecoalman »

MAXIMUM THUMBNAIL FILESIZE: Thumbnails will not be created for images if the created thumbnail filesize exceeds this value, in bytes. This is useful for particularly large images that are posted.
That appears to be wrong. I have custom mod for thumbs so I'm not positive. I'm not even sure what the need or purpose of this setting would be and it's mixing apples with oranges.

I've always had this set at 1000bytes and I don't think it actually plays any role at all. The behavior has always been images that exceed your thumbnail dimension will have thumbnail created. If they are less than the thumbnail dimensions they simply display at their full size and have no link.

Side note, if you are going to use the thumbs you can set the inline dimensions to 0 and 0 as it will never come into effect
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by P_I »

thecoalman wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:24 am I'm not even sure what the need or purpose of this setting would be and it's mixing apples with oranges.
That in a nutshell is my challenge. Figuring out how the various Image category settings work and interact with each other, specifically in phpBB 3.2.x with prosilver now being a responsive design.

Right now I'm doing some trial and error on a localhost replica for one of my forums, but I had hoped there was a better way/documentation or some recommendations on "best practices". Hence my reach-out to the phpBB community for help/guidance.
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by canonknipser »

Some short infos for that image parameters:
Minimum thumbnail file size creates thumbnails (if enabled) when the original file size is bigger than this value, after the upload is completed. If the upload file is smaller, then no thumb is generated. The admin guide is wrong ;)
The image dimension are used by plupload to resize images on client side when they don't match the dimensions. And (not yet in the bug tracker!) there is a bug with usage of plupload version in 3.2:
different from earlier versions of plupload, plupload also checks the quality value of jpegs even if dimension are OK, so:
  • Image is bigger or equal in width -> resize
  • Image is bigger or equal in height -> resize
  • Image has higher quality -> resize
Because the quality parameter is hardcoded at 85%, we had the images shrunken even is the image and file size was correct (if you understand german, maybe you can check this topic: https://www.phpbb.de/community/viewtopi ... 5&t=241059 )

For responsive presentation of images in prosilver: Yes, that's right, from a presentational point of view there is no need any longer to shrink images.
But, if you don't shrink them, you can have big files, which
  • makes your files-folder huge
  • generates huge traffic for end user when viewing images, think of mobile connections, bad public internet ...
as already mentioned
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Re: Image dimension settings in ACP->Post settings and Attachment settings with a responsive style

Post by P_I »

Much appreciated, thank you. That does help me understand it further and guides me towards what changes we might consider.

As I mentioned previously,
P_I wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:33 pm The sites I'm involved with are generally text based discussions with the occasional chart or diagram used to support the narrative, so we're generally not dealing with photographs and other large files.
We're generally dealing with filesizes well under 1 MB, so there is some room to increase the dimensions allowed. I'm just trying to figure out what makes the most sense and whether some of our long ago set ACP settings are still appropriate after all the changes that have occurred in phpBB since they were probably established back in the phpBB 2.x days.
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