Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Do not post support requests, bug reports or feature requests. Discuss phpBB here. Non-phpBB related discussion goes in General Discussion!
Suggested Hosts
Post Reply
KitchenTimes
Registered User
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by KitchenTimes » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:21 am

I have a prosilver 3.2.5 and in the ACP under 'Setting permissions' I see this sentence:
If you do not wish to assign a value for an option for this user or group select NO.
Now we contrast that with what I read in the 3.2 Rhea documentation under '5.3 Manual permissions'
NO will be disallow a permission setting unless it is overwritten by a YES.
and I am wondering about that not assigning a value sort of statement.

I checked and found that Rhea documentation after thinking that is seemed odd to be stating "if you do not wish to assign a value" because that seems to be stating you are doing nothing. Now even though we have incorrect English in the Rhea documentation it still seems much clearer by stating that No means we are disallowing permission.

Of course, it seems that the ACP language is informing us that 'No' is the default and the value is it is disallowing permission, but it seems the language in the ACP could be as clear as the language in the Rhea documentation; with the grammar correction, of course.

So my curiosity has me wondering what anyone else might think.

User avatar
AmigoJack
Registered User
Posts: 5573
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:33 am
Location: グリーン ヒル ゾーン
Contact:

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by AmigoJack » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:02 pm

Yes, you are correct. That wording was already in 3.0.14, and most likely introduced with 3.0.0. Interesting it still lives today. The word "value" should be replaced by "permission" and it would all make much more sense.

Normally you'd create a ticket (bug or improvement), but be aware that you might be wasting your time.
The worst thing about censorship is ███████████
Affin wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:51 am
The problem is probably not my English but you do not want to understand correctly.
...
We will not come anybody anyway, nevertheless, it's best to shit this.

User avatar
JimA
Community Team Leader
Community Team Leader
Posts: 7604
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:54 am
Location: The Netherlands
Name: Jim Mossing Holsteyn
Contact:

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by JimA » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:12 pm

Thanks very much for your suggestion. I agree with you that it'd be better to have more clear and consistent terminology across all places where we document these features, whether that's in the ACP of all boards or on our own website. We would appreciate it if you could create a ticket in our Bug Tracker for this, as that's where the Development Team resides. They don't usually watch the forums as much. :)

Also, even though this isn't really the place to speak about that, rest assured that all tickets on our Bug Tracker will be read by our Development Team and everybody (not just our developers) can use those tickets and Github to create their own pull request to request a code change. So if you have a suggestion for how to change it, you can do that. Otherwise it's very likely one of the Developers will pick it up. Even though we simply don't have the time and resources to handle each and every ticket, we do our best to handle them all based on priority and difficulty of the fix.
Image Jim Mossing Holsteyn - Community Team Leader
Knowledge Base | Documentation | Board rules

If you're having any questions about the rules/customs of this website, feel free to drop me a PM.

KitchenTimes
Registered User
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by KitchenTimes » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:52 pm

I do not mind submitting a ticket so the Development Team can work with this, but maybe we should first explore the options related to the best choice(s) of vocabulary usage.

And I would like to ask a question, please. Our board was upgraded from the 3.0 version and it was a few years back when we actually installed the board and I do not remember what "value" was the default when I first viewed that section of the ACP. And even that statement is assuming a "value" is automatically assigned when the board is activated. But is that assumption correct?

I seem to need to ask because of the wording:
If you do not wish to assign a value for an option for this user or group select NO.
The "do not wish to assign" seems to be indicating that nothing has been assigned when you are initially asked for your decision as you are going through the many processes necessary to set up the board. I just do not remember any of that some 10 years ago.

The next point would be the idea that AmigoJack proposes of substituting 'permission' for 'value' and so we'd have:

If you do not wish to assign a permission for an option for this user or group select NO. Or 'assign any permissions' maybe; but even that feels a little awkward, doesn't it?

Is 'permission' the best choice? It is very possible it is, but asking is a good idea before a ticket is submitted, yes? That would help the Development Team by doing the proper research out here first by getting feedback from other phpBB customers and, of course, the many other team members working on the main board out here.

User avatar
3Di
Former Team Member
Posts: 13691
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:09 pm
Location: Milan (IT) Frankfurt (DE)
Name: Marco
Contact:

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by 3Di » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:17 am

We are talking about
'ACL_SET_EXPLAIN' => 'Permissions are based on a simple <strong>YES</strong>/<strong>NO</strong> system. Setting an option to <strong>NEVER</strong> for a user or usergroup overrides any other value assigned to it. If you do not wish to assign a value for an option for this user or group select <strong>NO</strong>. If values are assigned for this option elsewhere they will be used in preference, else <strong>NEVER</strong> is assumed. All objects marked (with the checkbox in front of them) will copy the permission set you defined.',
Located in /language/en/acp/permissions.php

Implementing the AmigoJack's above suggestion it reads:
Permissions are based on a simple YES/NO system.

Setting an option to NEVER for a user or usergroup overrides any other permission assigned to it.

If you do not wish to assign a permission for an option for this user or group select NO.

If permissions are assigned for this option elsewhere they will be used in preference, else NEVER is assumed.

All objects marked (with the checkbox in front of them) will copy the permission set you defined.
Which seems to me still confusing.
Well for those they know how permissions work that's not a problem, I for one I can say that's the first time I am reading these lines.
Sure thing is some docs/explainations should be ported to a level of better understandability for the sake of everybody.
Please PM me only to request paid works. Thx.
Want to compensate me for my interest? Donate
My development's activity º PhpStorm's proud user
Extensions, Scripts, MOD porting, Update/Upgrades
👨‍🏫 | Take a tour to | The Studio | 👨‍🏫

KitchenTimes
Registered User
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by KitchenTimes » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:41 am

Your point about "for the sake of everybody" is what got me started on a special project last year and I didn't go into further detail here last year, but what I think is that the number of people that would use this software would increase if the documentation were easier for the non-programmer/non-code jockey to understand.

Yes, a whole bunch of people might not receive quite the same amount of income from doing installations and upgrades for the novice, but if the novice thought they were seeing instructions/documentation they had a chance to understand there might be more customers and more customers has to be good for the whole phpBB project.

I'd bet there are a whole bunch of common people on the Net that would love to create a forum around a hobby, but they do some studying of a given software's documentation and after a few hours they throw up their hands and think there is no way they would ever understand what to do and they don't have money for a professional, so they give up.

I mean, let's take the overall permissions realm here for this board. That is a tax inspector's heaven. it is so complicated you could get lost in there for days and maybe weeks and still not understand it all. Tax inspectors have the tax code for a given nation or state/province and that tax code is just like trying to understand all the many, many permissions settings all over the place for this board. I'd bet worms would wish they were bipeds if they could see the permissions instructions for the phpBB board because it is a maze of tunnels worms love and they'd be so happy they could dance, if they had two legs to dance with. Of course, they would have to be able to read, too.

I suspect if somebody had a big table and actually took each section of the documentation and placed all the separate pieces on that big table and then started reassembling the puzzle that they might come up with a better way to write it all up. And add more images.

But it sure would require some hard work and dedication, because one would want to give up many times. But I'll bet it could be done.

I'd also bet that a new customer to phpBB would quickly learn to hate the permissions documentation as much as they hate that yearly tax booklet they get. And I'm not even referring to the people who have to deal with the commercial code. That is for the really smart high class worms.

User avatar
Lumpy Burgertushie
Registered User
Posts: 66268
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 3:11 am
Contact:

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:53 am

while I don't disagree with your assessment of the permissions documentation, I do question your assumption about most users.
I would bet that the majority of people coming to phpbb for the first time never even look at any documentation before starting.

only when they run into problems do that try to figure out the solutions. I am not sure, but I think that the basic instructions do tell you how to do the basic permissions.

create a forum, set permissions or copy permissions from another forum.

I think the main thing that should be documented is the idea of leaving the default category/forum/topic alone and using it as a template for what to do with new forums etc.

If that was stated up front then most users would never have a problem with permissions since most users would never worry about needing any other permissions settings.
for those that do want to set up forums and/or groups with specific settings then they will need to understand the basics a little better.

All of this is already in the documentation. It should be put up front when downloading or somewhere that new users can not miss it and it should solve it for new phpbb users.

1. don't touch the default setup. leave it there to use as an example. Once you get the hang of how to create forums you can delete it or edit it for your own use.

2. When creating a new category/forum copy the permissions for that default category and that forum for your new category and forum.

3. basic way to setup forums/categories etc.
In forum management make a new forum.

Type: category
No parent.
Set the registered users to standard access

Then make another forum.
Type:forum
Parent: the category you just made.

Then you need to set permissions so everyone can see it:
Admin control panel>Permissions>Groups forum permissions.
Set the registered users to be able to see and post in it:
Registered users>Standard access

4. basic way permissions work:
Knowledge Base - phpBB3 Permissions

robert
I am going to be out of town and off line for a week . see ya when I get back.

Premium phpBB 3.2 Styles by PlanetStyles.net

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there, does it make a sound?

KitchenTimes
Registered User
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by KitchenTimes » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:17 am

I would bet that the majority of people coming to phpbb for the first time never even look at any documentation before starting.
I'll bet that dart scored you 60 points. Very good point.

EDIT: By the way, the speed of dark is light minus light.

User avatar
3Di
Former Team Member
Posts: 13691
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:09 pm
Location: Milan (IT) Frankfurt (DE)
Name: Marco
Contact:

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by 3Di » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:31 am

KitchenTimes wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:17 am
By the way, the speed of dark is light minus light.
"Dark" is not a certain physical concept and therefore defined as dark high is the possibility of quantifying its measurement in any way.
Please PM me only to request paid works. Thx.
Want to compensate me for my interest? Donate
My development's activity º PhpStorm's proud user
Extensions, Scripts, MOD porting, Update/Upgrades
👨‍🏫 | Take a tour to | The Studio | 👨‍🏫

User avatar
AmigoJack
Registered User
Posts: 5573
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:33 am
Location: グリーン ヒル ゾーン
Contact:

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by AmigoJack » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:22 am

The permission system is a compromise of need, performance, usability and simplicity:
  • There aren't more than 3 options per permission for simplicity: never overrides yes overrides no, with no being the default. Having more options would add another layer of checks to be performed.
  • Restrictions need to be taken at different aspects: regular users should not have moderator permissions. Moderators should not have administrator permissions. Forum permissions can differ, so only selected users are able to access a portion of forums or are not allowed to create topics in there.
  • By combining options with aspects and the ability to define it for multiple targets the usability of the permission system can't be higher. Best practice is to not assign permissions to single users or single forums, but instead assign them to either a group or a role. By default this is already the case: users being a member of the "Global moderators" group have most of the moderator permissions; same for the group "Administrators", "Registered users" and "Bots".
  • All the settings/permissions are compiled and the outcome is an individual code written to each user account, which then can be looked up rather easily by the software to check for a permission. Being easy to read is needed for performance reasons, as permissions are checked often. Sometimes only one single permission is checked, other times multiple permissions are checked at once (i.e. is the user allowed to download attachments and does the forum allow attachment downloads).
If the permission system would be less complex it would also be less flexible, resulting in less control over what to restrict. The "tax code" picture only halfway applies here, as there is no "permission code" you could enter to set a permission in a given aspect to a given target - you always have to browse there from start. Once you understood the system (yes, this may take a while - hence it's best to have a test board where you can test all that) you'll be glad you have all the abilities.

The terms I used and their meaning:
  • option = never/yes/no
  • aspect = user/moderator/administrator/forum
  • target = single user/group/role
  • group = Zero to many users can be a member of one group. By default every user is member of the group "Registered users". A user/account can be a member of zero to many groups. Never fiddle with the groups "Registered users" and "Guests" and their members - that only leads to disaster.
  • role = A set of permissions which can later be used as a template on users/groups/forums, so you don't have to set all permissions manually. If you use a role and then change one permission, the role no longer applies. Likewise changing a role will also change all target's and aspect's permissions which use that role.
  • permission = one of the user's/moderator's/administrator's/forum's setting, i.e. "can see forum" or "can create topic"
The worst thing about censorship is ███████████
Affin wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:51 am
The problem is probably not my English but you do not want to understand correctly.
...
We will not come anybody anyway, nevertheless, it's best to shit this.

KitchenTimes
Registered User
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by KitchenTimes » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:46 am

Please excuse me, 3Di, I should have been more specific. It goes like this:

Light minus Light equals Dark

So:

The Speed of Light minus the Speed of Light equals the Speed of Dark.

KitchenTimes
Registered User
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Curious about Vocabulary Usage

Post by KitchenTimes » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:58 am

I am not trying to state the permissions system is flawed in any way, AmigoJack. But even your summary of the system requires a couple of reads to be able to fully grasp what you are explaining.

Of course, it may end up being that there is no easy (plain language) way to explain even your summary.

In fact, I think there is some sort of plain style expression of me being - - - up the creek without a paddle because I am looking for something that just isn't there. Dreamers end up like that creek situation a lot. But dreamers can be useful sometimes.

Post Reply

Return to “phpBB Discussion”