Why oh why

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RMcGirr83
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Re: Why oh why

Post by RMcGirr83 »

He said "usually" which doesn't mean "all".
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Re: Why oh why

Post by PlanetStyles.net »

I think there's an important distinction to be drawn here between:
  • freebies available on phpBB.com vs. freebies available externally
  • freebies available on phpBB.com vs. premium themes / extensions available externally
The problem you'll find with freebies (which absolutely includes all submissions on phpBB.com) is longevity. This is evidenced by the number of contributions that start in the 'x in development' forums but don't make it to the CDB. Or, validated contributions where the developer doesn't provide support.

Developers who submit to the CDB on phpbb.com generally do so for 2 reasons:
  • As a philanthropic gesture to the community, as their contribution solves a problem or enhances user experience
  • To promote an external offering via footer link (such as premium phpBB services or premium extensions / themes)
The promotion of external offerings is generally a good thing, as the developer now has a vested interest to keep their freebie alive and supported. I can attest to this through my own experiences, but also we can look back on Arty's contributions and his high-profile sponsorship with FreeForums.org (which later turned into self-promoting his own premium work).

On the other hand, philanthropic submissions (which is generally most of them) where the developer has invested time into creating their contribution, but has nothing to promote and expects nothing in return, are more of a significant problem. This is because the contribution's lifespan is directly relative to the developer's current interest / motivation level. Which could disappear overnight and never return. This is a risk that is equal in measure whether something was downloaded on phpBB.com or externally.

With regards to premium contributions that are only available externally: Generally speaking, premium phpBB contributions (themes / extensions) are superior in every way. Feature sets are superior (particularly in the case of themes / styles), code quality is normally better, updates are faster, support is better, and premium themes' aesthetics and UX are incomparable to any freebie you'll find on phpBB.com.

Particularly with regard to version updates or maintenance releases, phpBB.com submissions will be stuck in validation queues for many weeks, while external developers often publish updates on the same day of a phpBB release. On the phpBB 3.3 release, most of the best-selling phpBB themes on ThemeForest were updated to support it within a week.

Finally, it is important to consider and acknowledge that there are many exceptional phpBB developers (companies and individuals) who barely step foot in this community, notably Tapatalk, PixelGoose, RocketTheme (historically) to name a few.

All things considered it is absolutely not right to say that contributions should only be downloaded from phpBB.com. If it's available externally and costs $$$ , you'll usually find it beats anything you'll find for free here :)
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Re: Why oh why

Post by thecoalman »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
Finally, it is important to consider and acknowledge that there are many exceptional phpBB developers (companies and individuals) who barely step foot in this community, notably Tapatalk,....
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2469156&p=14993971#p14993971

Note the length of time of time to fix it. If I were to guess that is overnight patch being issued if it were problem with phpBB software. In fact there was similar situation when they introduced feeds with 3.0.7, probably the most glaring security issue for the 3.X branch to date. You were able to access private forums IF the group was added to forum and had any permissions set. It was found and a patch released within 24 hours after release of 3.0.7, that is why there is 3.0.7-PL

Anything is prone to security issues but when you have an issue like that where the confidentially of private data can be compromised it needs to get fixed ASAP.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by 3Di »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
notably Tapatalk
That statement (excerpt) alone is a sacrifice you could give up. :ugeek:

I also prefer not to go into the substance of the rest or even of this debate, I do not know if I could remain sufficiently placid and then be blamed for being a bit arrogant and whatever else I am often blamed or accused upon to do. Of course I'd know what to say and take apart every point. :P

Let me break one point though, just because I think your whole post it is just your propaganda IMHO.

You mentioned
PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
... but also we can look back on Arty's contributions and his high-profile sponsorship with FreeForums.org (which later turned into self-promoting his own premium work)....
Which, dunno why redirects exactly where? https://www.freeForums.org -> Tapatalk
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Re: Why oh why

Post by P_I »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
With regards to premium contributions that are only available externally: Generally speaking, premium phpBB contributions (themes / extensions) are superior in every way. Feature sets are superior (particularly in the case of themes / styles), code quality is normally better, updates are faster, support is better, and premium themes' aesthetics and UX are incomparable to any freebie you'll find on phpBB.com.
The paid software would is full of vendors who've offered "life-time subscriptions" that we valid only for the lifetime of the vendor, not the consumer.

There is no perfect model and paid isn't necessarily better. That's far too sweeping a generalization.
PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
All things considered it is absolutely not right to say that contributions should only be downloaded from phpBB.com. If it's available externally and costs $$$ , you'll usually find it beats anything you'll find for free here :)
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is just one of many.

Everyone should gather their own facts, looking at various opinions and viewpoints and then make an informed decision.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by PlanetStyles.net »

Evidently Tapatalk was not the best example, although that doesn't detract from the overall point which was:
PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:24 am
it is absolutely not right to say that contributions should only be downloaded from phpBB.com
...particularly in the case of themes.
3Di wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:59 am
You mentioned
PlanetStyles.net wrote: ↑Today, 03:24
... but also we can look back on Arty's contributions and his high-profile sponsorship with FreeForums.org (which later turned into self-promoting his own premium work)....
Which, dunno why redirects exactly where? https://www.freeForums.org -> Tapatalk
We're talking about a sponsorship that occurred from late 2000's - early 2010's, long before FreeForums were acquired by Tapatalk. Once this sponsorship ended, the links were changed to promote his own premium work on Artodia, which continues to sell premium XenForo themes to this day. Any relationship between FreeForums and Tapatalk has no relevance to the point I made.
3Di wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:59 am
Of course I'd know what to say and take apart every point.
I would be interested to hear your perspective on why you feel freebies are a better offering than premium - particularly as you appear to sell at least one premium extension through studio.

I'm not sure if I'd agree about this as being propoganda. It's true I sell premium stuff, it's also true that I've been offering freebies here since 2008/9, and spent about a year working on the phpBB.com team, which included a brief period on the styles team validating other people's work.

I'm not here to advertise my own products; I'd just like to change the perception that "if it's not from phpBB.com, it must be bad".
P_I wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:46 am
Everyone should gather their own facts, looking at various opinions and viewpoints and then make an informed decision.
Yes, absolutely. I would like to see established community members adopt this advice as opposed to dismissing anything that's not from the CDB.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by 3Di »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:58 am
Evidently Tapatalk was not the best example, although that doesn't detract from the overall point
Instead it does, it means (first of all It means that all the points you talk about then automatically fall by themselves because of it - a sacrifise as I said) a lot to those who know phpBB at source code level, here we talk about PHP mainly, without it your styles would never be there. ;) Wanting to be more focused on the subject, I dare say that you know very little about PHP/phpBB if I judge, as I did, that statement and not only. Going further, this topic contains a multitude of assertions based on non-experience and knowledge of the whole system and its politics. If you want something external and you pay for it but it's okay then don't come bothering here asking for assistance and condemning your supplier for lack of it. Which often happens, you are not exempt.

And then, I'd better think before answering further, if I ever will, as I said before this topic is a powder keg.
Last edited by 3Di on Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by P_I »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:58 am
I'm not here to advertise my own products; I'd just like to change the perception that "if it's not from phpBB.com, it must be bad".
That might be easier if you didn't generalize and equate paid to premium.

Depending on viewpoint of the board owner (and their members), there are excellent, good and bad contributions available here on phpBB.com, just like there are excellent, good and bad contributions from other vendors that cost money. Just because someone offers something at a cost doesn't make it necessarily better or a premium product.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by PlanetStyles.net »

3Di wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:08 pm
Wanting to be more focused on the subject, I dare say that you know very little about PHP/phpBB if I judge
Indeed, I am not a PHP developer (we have an outstanding partner for that). However I am one of at least 3 authors who has sold over $100,000 worth of phpBB products, have over 100,000 downloads of freebies on phpBB.com, have served on the phpBB Support, Website and Styles Teams. Not to mention providing free support here since 2008. Proud owner of 2 Bertie Bears.

My knowledge of the software and community isn't a problem :)

Evidently you don't want to make your points publicly, so you're welcome to PM those instead - I'm still interested in hearing your point of view.

Although I think you might still have some skeletons in the closet after we declined your license terms for outsource work a few years ago and chose another developer instead ;)

P_I wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:16 pm
Just because someone offers something at a cost doesn't make it necessarily better or a premium product.
Sure. It is generally the case though.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by 3Di »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:22 pm
My knowledge of the software and community isn't a problem
Ouch, your above statement about TapaCRAP makes you failing once again.

A hug for the bears.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by P_I »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:22 pm
P_I wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:16 pm
Just because someone offers something at a cost doesn't make it necessarily better or a premium product.
Sure. It is generally the case though.
P_I wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:46 am
There is no perfect model and paid isn't necessarily better. That's far too sweeping a generalization.
You've made some good points above. But once you equate paid to premium and start making generalizations then we will have to agree to disagree. I don't agree with that generalization. The software world is full of open-source and free products that are far better than their paid product equivalents. I'll end with where I started,
P_I wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:46 am
Everyone should gather their own facts, looking at various opinions and viewpoints and then make an informed decision.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by 3Di »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:22 pm
have over 100,000 downloads of freebies on phpBB.com
CDB -> 203,037 and counting... (excluding phpBB2's validated MODS) . For free. :D
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Re: Why oh why

Post by PlanetStyles.net »

3Di wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:43 pm
PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:22 pm
have over 100,000 downloads of freebies on phpBB.com
CDB -> 203,037 and counting... (excluding phpBB2's validated MODS) . For free. :D
Impressive, although I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. You disputed my knowledge of phpBB, the software and its community. I substantiated that by evidencing the contributions I made.

At this point it looks like you're looking for personal attack vectors rather than engaging in constructive conversation 🤷
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Re: Why oh why

Post by 3Di »

I only said that your post was/it is just your propaganda. I've explained (shortly) some of the reason(s) why IMHO that's it.
I prefer not to go into the substance of the rest.

I wouldn't want you to be shined by a light that's not yours. :geek:
3Di wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:08 pm
... this topic contains a multitude of assertions based on non-experience and knowledge of the whole system and its politics. If you want something external and you pay for it but it's okay then don't come bothering here asking for assistance and condemning your supplier for lack of it. Which often happens, you are not exempt.
Enough said, gotta go.
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Re: Why oh why

Post by RMcGirr83 »

PlanetStyles.net wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:22 pm
However I am one of at least 3 authors who has sold over $100,000 worth of phpBB products, have over 100,000 downloads of freebies on phpBB.com, have served on the phpBB Support, Website and Styles Teams.
The statement above is actually quite meaningless...everyone, I'm sure, remembers the Yugo. :) Generally ones accomplishments tend to speak for themselves instead of being touted.

FYI, for a "professional" theme I would expect more than this:
RTL is not currently supported (but we’re working on it!)
Owing to the custom nature of the theme, some hooks (required for extension support) may be missing. This is not intentional, please contact us if you encounter any issues so they can be re-added.
You should be adding hooks to your "professional" theme as they are added by phpBB. This is easily determined by visiting the event list of phpBB instead of relying on users to notify you of a missing hook...which, I would imagine, happens if an extension author gets a support topic opened stating the extension isn't showing up, for example, on the index page of a users forum. Invariably it would be due to a missing hook in the style.

Missing RTL isn't something I'm personally negatively affected by but that should definetly be stated quite plainly at the top of the themeforest download for the style instead of buried at the bottom of the page otherwise it seems a bit misleading as it could be assumed that the style supports RTL.

I think we can agree that your knowledge of phpBB is limited to styling, just as my knowledge is limited to coding. Admittedly I am not very good at styling but that is something I put out there plainly.

Tapatalk shouldn't even be in this topic...at all.
If you have a previous version of the Tapatalk plugin installed on your site, to install the latest Tapatalk plugin, you'll need to uninstall the older version plugin and delete it then follow the installation process to do a fresh installation
The "delete it" is ambiguous (delete the extension in the ACP, delete the files from the forum directories?). If delete from the ACP this is NOT how an extension should be updated as all config entries will be lost.

Apparently not even "professional/paid" things are completely without fault so the statement that they are is without merit.

This is all IMHO obviously.
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