group_id field in users table

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BarneyC
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by BarneyC »

AmigoJack wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:12 pm
BarneyC wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:28 pm
what is "not wrong" about a user having a default group that he doesn't actually belong to?
The outcome is within phpBB's definition: conditions are expected. Maybe you understand it this way: there's no need for that column in the table at all and group priorities could be stored with the related groups, but performance-wise it's much cheaper to keep that one data right with the user. It still doesn't make it necessary to synchronize it also with the case of "no groups".
You're making excuses here for something done incorrectly. This is how basic flaws in systems don't get fixed year after year after year. If setting the group to 0 "breaks" something, then somewhere an invalid group_id is being used for something, which contradicts what you're saying.
BarneyC wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:28 pm
There are no phpBB-only users
Then your installation has no bot accounts, so the "who is online" part will neither show you whenever a crawler visits the board, nor will permissions for those kick in. By default account #1 is the guest, #2 the initial administrator/founder and #3 to #52 the bots.
Wrong, because our user table starts at 1000 so we have plenty of room for special users and bots. Only amateurs start their tables at 1.We block most crawlers anyway; and there are more sophisticated ways of "knowing" if bots are crawling your site. We monitor bots on the entire site; I don't see why I need something special for each component installed on the site. I don't know of any other product that has bot accounts; it's always seemed kind of. hokey to me.

A better design would be allocating 1-100 for admins, 200-300 for bots and setting the first user account to anonymous, so you could identify registered users as "> Anonymous". Of course you have to have that idea very early in the development cycle. I'm using the add_user extension and have added a user_id field so I can surgically insert new admins into
BarneyC wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:28 pm
Before doing this I saw a lot of advice to use the phpBB login system for site-wide logins, but I think that's the wrong approach for multiple reasons. The biggest is that you don't have to deal with the phpBB-aware spam bots.
The device was always aimed at people who wanted literally to integrate phpBB into their website, as in: show/create posts/topics outside of phpBB. Your scenario is different.
That's not true at all; in fact YOU JUST SUGGESTED otherwise. Numerous people have ask about integrating LOGINS with their existing website, and in the 13+ years of posts I didn't find one useful solution; obviously integrating logins to have a seamless community is a much more common (and difficult) requirement; any noob with basic SQL knowledge can display posts on their site.

No sense arguing. I appreciate the help and insight.
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BarneyC
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by BarneyC »

david63 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:20 pm
BarneyC wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:41 pm
newly registered users are never considered to be registered users in terms of permissions or access.
Yes they are otherwise they would never be able to do anything.

I would suggest that you get an understanding of how the phpBB permission system works as it appears at the moment you are trying to rewrite it
That's simply wrong. Because I had erroneously added users ONLY to newly registered users and everything worked fine to the point that I didn't know anything was wrong. If I remove a user from registered users he can do all of the things that newly registered users are allowed to do
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Lumpy Burgertushie
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie »

the whole point of newly registered user group is to restrict what new users can do . many people do not even use it since they don't want to restrict new users.

all registered users go in the registered user group, always. there is never a good reason to remove anyone from that group.
I am not sure why it is allowed at all other than giving people options to screw up their boards if they so desire.

just because you don't understand how the phpbb permission system works or how to use it properly does not mean there is anything wrong with how it is designed and how it works.
I don't understand how to use android phones but that doesn't mean they are designed wrong it just means that I don't understand them.


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BarneyC
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by BarneyC »

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:48 pm

just because you don't understand how the phpbb permission system works or how to use it properly does not mean there is anything wrong with how it is designed and how it works.
I don't understand how to use android phones but that doesn't mean they are designed wrong it just means that I don't understand them.


robert
Apparently I understand them better than most people who claim to understand them. Your lack of android prowess is noted.

Perhaps if you set up your forums with some alternate "understanding" it may work differently, but you can set up any group with any permissions you want. I see no requirement that user Foo "must be in registered users to do this or that", unless you specifically set it up that way.
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie »

as I have often been told, "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it".
as I said, you don't seem to understand the way the permissions system is designed to work.

good luck,
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by AmigoJack »

BarneyC wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:28 pm
This is how basic flaws in systems don't get fixed year after year after year.
This is how mathematics and the concept of domain/range works. Your reasoning is correct (to fix flaws), but dividing by zero is not a flaw - it is undefined and has to be avoided for that very reason. I wonder why you never asked how the "next" default group is determined once you end group membership - that's where I had to augment code for automated addings to and removings from groups. But I still wouldn't consider anything being "broken" there.
BarneyC wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:28 pm
Wrong, because our user table starts at 1000 so we have plenty of room for special users and bots. Only amateurs start their tables at 1.
...
A better design would be allocating 1-100 for admins, 200-300 for bots and setting the first user account to anonymous, so you could identify registered users as "> Anonymous".
The best thing about this is: I don't have to waste my time finding out which accounts I should assault to get higher permissions - all administrators are in the same block. Also removing all administrator permissions or assigning even one administrator permission from/to an account will ruin this order easily.
BarneyC wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:28 pm
bot accounts; it's always seemed kind of. hokey to me.
You could adjust permissions and other details for each bot in a different manner, should that ever be your wish. Just like an account. Always seemed administrator friendly to me. How bots are recognized is unbound to which account they're assigned to, and based on the last 10 years I'd rather give up recognizing them, as they don't want to be recognized anyway.
BarneyC wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:05 pm
Your lack of android prowess is noted.
Add me to that list: both any android, and Android.
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The problem is probably not my English but you do not want to understand correctly.
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by thecoalman »

BarneyC wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:41 pm
The point is that theres no point to being in both groups, since newly registered users are never considered to be registered users in terms of permissions or access.
Permissions in phpBB can be difficult to wrap your head around sometimes but they can be powerful tool if you know how to use them. First thing to understand is they are stacked. "Yes" overrides "no" if they belong to two groups, "never" as is the case used for NRU is always never.

Quick tip, suppose you have a private forum for admins and moderators. If you do not add groups to the forum you do not have to set permissions for them.

Permissions tab >> Forum Permissions >> Select the forum >>
Image

In that case all other groups are effectively never.
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by thecoalman »

BarneyC wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:28 pm
I don't know of any other product that has bot accounts; it's always seemed kind of. hokey to me.
Certain links like profiles are hidden from bots and there are other uses. You can leave a forum public but block the bot from indexing it. Taking that step further suppose you were serving Google ads in those forums. You can set up an additional ads bot group, add Googles adbot to it and give it permissions for it.
A better design would be allocating 1-100 for admins, 200-300 for bots and setting the first user account to anonymous,
Regardless of whether this makes sense or not phpBB goes back to 2000 and if you needed to you could upgrade to the newest version from those older versions. Trying to implement this would break links in posts etc.
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BarneyC
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by BarneyC »

A better design would be allocating 1-100 for admins, 200-300 for bots and setting the first user account to anonymous,
Regardless of whether this makes sense or not phpBB goes back to 2000 and if you needed to you could upgrade to the newest version from those older versions. Trying to implement this would break links in posts etc.
I specifically said "Of course you have to have that idea very early in the development cycle", so why cut off the context to try to make a point that I've already addressed?

The truth is that you can set the Newly Registered Group to do everything that Registered Users can do, so this talk about having to do this or that is just nonsense based on traditional default settings. You could just as easily add the user to Registered Users in remove_newly_registered() and it would work just fine. The "is_registered" setting has no requirement that a user be in the "registered users" group. A registered user is anyone who isnt a bot or anonymous.
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by 3Di »

BarneyC wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:41 pm
A registered user is anyone who isnt a bot or anonymous.
Both BOTs and ANONYMOUS are registered users as well.
That's phpBB, other forum software maybe are not using this system but here that's it, right or wrong you can not change it.
You have to live with it or use another software, again.
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BarneyC
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by BarneyC »

3Di wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:48 pm
BarneyC wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:41 pm
A registered user is anyone who isnt a bot or anonymous.
Both BOTs and ANONYMOUS are registered users as well.
That's phpBB, other forum software maybe are not using this system but here that's it, right or wrong you can not change it.
You have to live with it or use another software, again.
I've found your posts to be particularly useless and wrong. Please stop "helping".

Code: Select all

$this->data['is_registered'] = (!$bot && $this->data['user_id'] != ANONYMOUS 
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by 3Di »

BarneyC wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:55 pm
I've found your posts to be particularly useless and wrong. Please stop "helping".
I have found your 20 posts you made till now just useless, please stop trolling.

If you have a board with some issue then welcome, we can help you, if you registered just in order to turn on flames
then I think you will face some fire-fighter very soon (we have already seen a lot of specialists here in the past)
show some respect to the community, I just do not care about myself.

AGAIN
3Di wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:48 pm
Both BOTs and ANONYMOUS are registered users as well.
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Re: group_id field in users table

Post by thecoalman »

BarneyC wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:41 pm

The truth is that you can set the Newly Registered Group to do everything that Registered Users can do,
If that is your goal under registration setting set "New member post limit:" to 0 which disables the NRU group.

The point of the NRU group is you can limit features for newly registered members based on post count which is something a lot of forum admins want to do.. If you don't have a use for it don't use it.
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