Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

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Dog Cow
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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by Dog Cow »

Highway of Life wrote:Same thing happens to me, TBH. :D

There are some who would say that 3.0 cannot possibly be as stable as phpBB 2.0.23 is currently.
What does "stable" even mean? It's just forum software run on an interpreted language, not like a CPU or an OS even. I've run phpBB 2 since 0.10 and have never enountered any sort of bug or "crash". I've never even encountered bugs in phpBB 3 RCs, betas, or the latest 3.0.1. Does phpBB even "crash"? In my mind, you can give that term "stable" to something which hangs or crashes and then has to be restarted.

To me, throwing around the term "stable" in the context of phpBB is just sounding like someone who doesn't really know the technical terms or correct terminiology or whatever, like the software bosses who have programmers.

I've never used that term "stable" ever in anything that goes on the web.
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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by MartectX »

Dog Cow wrote:What does "stable" even mean? It's just forum software run on an interpreted language, not like a CPU or an OS even. I've run phpBB 2 since 0.10 and have never enountered any sort of bug or "crash". I've never even encountered bugs in phpBB 3 RCs, betas, or the latest 3.0.1. Does phpBB even "crash"? In my mind, you can give that term "stable" to something which hangs or crashes and then has to be restarted.
Well, if the posting form "crashes" because I typed a character it does not support but should (like ä), then that's unstable to me.

EDIT: Crash in the sense that it outputs a (maybe even unknown) error or just displays a blank page.

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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by Highway of Life »

“Stable” software is a term widely used in the Web Development and Software Development Industry, though not necessarily in the Web Design world, which may be why some people are not familiar with the term in regards to software.

The software that I’m referring to includes Operating Systems such as Windows XP or Mac OS X, computer applications such as Photoshop or Zend Studio or web applications such as phpBB or Joomla!.

In every software, there are stability issues. This could be crashes as you’re referring to, or it could refer to the bugs, or workability of features (i.e. if the features are working correctly).
Instability can range from a feature not working correctly, or an intended functionality that does not exist, it could mean something does not work correctly, it could mean security vulnerabilities, or it could mean minor bugs such as undefined indexes or variables, or perhaps simply missing language variables. In severe cases, it could mean crashes, as you’re referring to.
In web development, this usually occurs as a segfault, memory consumption, complete apache crash as the result of a conflict, or a host of other issues.
Sometimes these result in blank pages, 500 errors, but some may even be unseen.

phpBB 3.0.1 is more stable than 3.0.0, there are many bug fixes that address mostly stability issues, and a couple minor security issues.
However, at this point, the phpBB2 stability issues (bugs) are not being addresses because it takes time away from development of 3.2, and maintaining 3.0.x, except for security issues, which are addressed right away and will be through early 2009.
You also have the problem of the limitations of PHP4 and phpBB2 which mean that many stability issues simply cannot be addressed, or that can’t be addresses without completely rewriting portions of the system. -- Obviously, this is not a very attractive or viable option.

My usage in this case has to do with certain people (who will remain nameless) who have accused phpBB3 of being unstable -- or rather, *assuming* it is unstalbe --, and stating that 3.0 could not possibly be nearly as stable NOW as when phpBB2 was several revisions after it’s respective gold release.
However, as we know, this is simply not the case. -- phpBB2 has many bugs and stability issues that phpBB3 simply does not have.
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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by SneakySimian »

Have you ever looked at the BBCode parser for phpBB2? That's one of the most unstable things I have ever seen in software that's supposed to be stable. It looks and feels like it is held together with duct tape.

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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by SneakySimian »

Dog Cow wrote:
Highway of Life wrote:Same thing happens to me, TBH. :D

There are some who would say that 3.0 cannot possibly be as stable as phpBB 2.0.23 is currently.
What does "stable" even mean? It's just forum software run on an interpreted language, not like a CPU or an OS even. I've run phpBB 2 since 0.10 and have never enountered any sort of bug or "crash". I've never even encountered bugs in phpBB 3 RCs, betas, or the latest 3.0.1. Does phpBB even "crash"? In my mind, you can give that term "stable" to something which hangs or crashes and then has to be restarted.

To me, throwing around the term "stable" in the context of phpBB is just sounding like someone who doesn't really know the technical terms or correct terminiology or whatever, like the software bosses who have programmers.

I've never used that term "stable" ever in anything that goes on the web.
Have you ever seen a race condition in PHP? I have. @_@ If that doesn't count as unstable, I don't know what does.

Let's talk SDLC.

Famous wikipedia, here I come! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_D ... Life_Cycle
A software development process is a structure imposed on the development of a software product. Synonyms include software life cycle and software process. There are several models for such processes, each describing approaches to a variety of tasks or activities that take place during the process.
Take special note that this does not say "operating systems only." Or "software that is only developed in C++." It says a software product. Of which phpBB belongs to. So now let's continue our tour to the term stable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_software
Stable or unstable

In open source programming, version numbers or the terms stable and unstable commonly distinguish the stage of development. The term stable refers to a version of software that is substantially identical to a version that has been through enough real-world testing to reasonably assume there are no showstopper problems, or at least that any problems are known and documented. On the other hand, the term unstable does not necessarily mean that there are problems - rather, that enhancements or changes have been made to the software that have not undergone rigorous testing and that more changes are expected to be imminent. Users of such software are advised to use the stable version if it meets their needs, and to only use the unstable version if the new functionality is of interest that exceeds the risk that something might simply not work right.

In the Linux kernel, version numbers are composed of three numbers, separated by a period. Between versions 1.0.0 and 2.6.x, stable releases had an even second number and unstable release an odd one. As of Linux 2.6.x, the even or odd status of the second number no longer holds any significance. The practice of using even and odd numbers to indicate the stability of a release has been used by other open and closed source projects.
The very first mention in there is open source software. Not closed source software. Not operating systems. Not Microsoft Office. phpBB happens to be an open source product. Does it not get counted among open source software packages? Indeed it does get included in open source software packages.

So, I think it is not the people who are "throwing around" the term stable who don't understand the terminology. Indeed, they are they ones who do understand the terminology.

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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by arod-1 »

talk about "off topic"....
the last several posts seem to be discussing the merits of phpbb2 vs. 3.
in my mind, this is the wrong discussion.
i will readily admit that phpbb3 is superior (technically) to phpbb2 in almost every possible angle you look at it.
i also think that phpbb3 was more sound (because dog cow dislikes the term "stable") than phpbb2 even when it was still RC.

but the fact that something better is available is not necessarily a satisfactory reason to kill the old.
if switching from "old" to "new" was without cost, and if the "new" supported every single thing that the "old" did, then the situation was different.
as it is, switching is not free of cost, and the "new" does not support everything that "old" does, and the decision to kill "old" should be viewed in this light.
part of the problem stems from the huge success of phpbb. in another thread that was locked, someone cited 2 million phpbb boards. even if you take this number with a huge grain of salt, there is no doubt that there are hundreds of thousands of active phpbb boards.
a significant number of those board operators do not care about software. they care about quilts, or babies, or dogs, or scrapbooks, or whatever their board is about.
these people are not registered at phpbb.com, and they are not aware (and probably don't care) about the EOL decision.

some of those operators do not even bother to update their system, and they might be using 2.0.14 or whatever it was when they initially installed. for those people there is zero impact of the decision to kill phpbb2.

but some of them are "good citizens": whenever they see the red message in the admin panel, they follow the instructions and upgrade.
this is the group that's going to be significantly hurt by the decision to kill phpbb2 in the case a new exploit will be found.
this is why i said (in the other thread that was locked) that it would be irresponsible of the phpbb team to NOT create a fix for such a hypothetical exploit if and when it will show up.
and personally, i do not believe that the phpbb team is that irresponsible: it is my belief that in the highly unlikely case that such an exploit would pop-up, the phpbb team will create and distribute a fix even after the declared EOL of phpbb2. any other behavior is, frankly, inconceivable.
now, if no such exploit will ever appear (and this is the likely case), nobody would expect the phpbb team to release any new version even if they wouldn't have announced EOL.

so, (assuming i'm right regarding the hypothetical case), the only practical meaning of the EOL decision is the closure of the phpbb-2 forums on this site.
this decision, although i think is wrong*, will not have a huge impact on anyone.



*what i think would have been the right mode of operation is to announce that no more team support would be given for phpbb2, and from some cut-date on, only community based support can be expected.
however, as one team member so succinctly informed me through PM, what i think "carries no weight around here" :(

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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by Highway of Life »

Lets get back on-topic.

This was not meant to get into a debate, nor give any reasons for v2 to be killed.
But to inform users on what “stability” is and to address the issues of phpBB3 stability, which came into question. :)
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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by 3Di »

Yes, the above post could be indeed off-topic. I'm tempted to respond to the above but's very hard to stay on-topic while doing it.
Anyway I'll try: a decision has been taken and I think everybody that trust in a Group/Entity believes in their words or else all what they have stated can't be trust anymore in the future, so no chances, I guess.
The Topic's title recalls me something to say about: thanks God we are entering (somebody already did it :) ) into the new phpBB era, there are good reasons, believe me. No, i have not regrets about the diseppearing of the phpBB2 forums, I wrote many MODs for it, I loved it and I do, but I'm focused on the future that can't be stopped.

Take your train while pass, you all can. :)

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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by Dog Cow »

Back on topic: Everyone who is using unmodded phpBB2 boards should upgrade now. everyone else can either stay, or upgrade and try to find v3 mods.
Highway of Life wrote:to inform users on what “stability” is
You've really opened my eyes.
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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by Dogs and things »

Problem is that I have many MODs on my board that are not available yet, some of those are not even official releases and others are not even unofficial releases but mere changes I made with the help of others.

For the moment the list of non-available but required MODs is to long for me to consider upgrading.

I like many of the new features in 3 but I don't want to downgrade, modwise speaking. :cry:

But I am playing with 3, starting with the styling and getting used to the way everything works, hopefully the day will arrive in which I can upgrade having the same look and all of the MODs I want.
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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by phpDummie »

Highway of Life wrote:... However, at this point, the phpBB2 stability issues (bugs) are not being addresses because it takes time away from development of 3.2, and maintaining 3.0.x, ...
Retiring phpbb2 and dropping the phpbb2 forums seem like and can be treated as two completely separate issues. Nobody's insisting on phpbb team to keep on supporting phpbb2 when it is busy developing bigger and greater things for phpbb3. But denying the phpbb2 community means to provide user-to-user support does not seem wise to me.

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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by jaunty_mellifluous »

phpBB 3.0 is an advanced piece of software. I know many people have invested huge amounts of time in phpBB 2.0 to get it to work exactly the way they wanted. But phpBB 3.0 offers a lot more. It's simply time to move on.
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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by karlsemple »

This is the very last warning, I am getting tired of having to keep tabs on this topic, one more off topic post will result in the padlock which will remain. This topic is not to discuss reasoning behind the decision, agreement (or not) of the decision or any other type of debate. All we want in here is a discussion on what the retirement of phpBB2 means to you.

So again please think carefully before making your post, thanks.
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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by cavallino »

The retirement of phpbb2 means nothing for me. Nothing because I will still keep using it, I have dedicated so much time on it in all these years that you can't even imagine, and I dont care if there will be or there not will be any security updates until the next year or the following ones by the dev team. If my furum gets hacked, in the next years, I will pass to another web based bulletin board, but before I will try to find the causes anyway.
Btw, I already know that there are some nice people that will take care of phpbb2 anyway.... even in the next future! thank god :)

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Re: Discuss: What does phpBB2's retirement mean for you.

Post by Smokeydogg »

i have no problems with it i would rather use the new stuff that is more secure and better then the old stuff

as for mods they arent part of the core product so its really of no concern that they be ported that is something the mod creators must do that is if they want to do it

phpbb 3 is way nicer then 2 so get with the future and leave the past behind

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