Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

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LGoosens
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Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by LGoosens » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:23 pm

Hi there folks,

my name is Lennart Goosens. I am the official translator for the Dutch [Netherlands] language. I wasn't aware of the fact that a thread about the translation was running here on the phpBB.com forums. Now, however, I am, and I'll tell you about my personal efforts towards a translation.

I decided some time ago, that I wanted to wait till the release of the Release Candidates, before I would start my translation. I am not translating in a team; I'm doing this on my own. You might think: "this isn't a one man job", but I think there are reasons why it should be.
Some time ago, I found out about phpBB.nl's efforts towards doing a translation of phpBB 3, and sent their team an email. I asked them what the hell they were doing. I mean, why do something you know somebody else (me) is doing already? Their polite response informed me that they had no plans of quitting - I didn't ask them to either - and were doing it all the same. Furthermore, they asked me whether I would like to join their team.

That may sound like a good plan to you, it would eliminate a lot of confusion at the very least, wouldn't it? Now, there are a number of reasons why - even though I considered it - I rejected their offer. Firstly, I think translating in a team is a nightmare. Just a little example: in English, you can have a button with the caption "Buy now". In Dutch, this can be translated in two ways, namely "Nu kopen" (infinitive) and "Koop nu" (stem). Which one to use? Of course you can make lots of directives on how to do the translation before you start, but I think a translation of this magnitude - which is still manageable by one person - should be managed by one person rather than a lot of them. Secondly, I think I'm not going to get along to well with other translators in a team. I am very meticulous, and that's favourable when doing a translation of course, but a lot of people hate me for it. And thirdly, I think having multiple translations that do not originate from the official phpBB Group, is very confusing for the users of the software. That way, I'm getting bug reports for somebody else's translation.

Now these are also the reasons why I am doing the official translation: I am very meticulous, and by doing it on my own, I can keep consistent throughout the translation. I do not have professional experience translating, but I am doing quite well in both English and Dutch.
Also, because I'm doing the official translation, most bug reports will come to me, because mine will probably be the one used most, for it's from the official phpBB Group.

As for phpBBsupport.nl's translation: I haven't seen it, but if it's a bad translation, just don't use it. You better wait for the official one that I am doing, since you will get support directly from the phpBB Group.

As a side note, I also want to announce that I will probably be changing some fundamental translations for concepts relating to the changes in forum structure. For there will now be the ability to create sub forums, some of the terminology - that I have not invented in the first place, my predecessors have - has to be changed to make things right.

Cheers,
Lennart Goosens, from Holland.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Tri » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:46 pm

All I can say is; GO LENNART! :mrgreen:

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by lurttinen » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:40 pm

This is a split from http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... 9&start=15
The listed language pack maintainer has the priority over the dutch translation on phpbb.com :)
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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Stefft » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:47 pm

Lennart, we respect your choice and I wish you all the best with making a nice translation. :-)

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by arod-1 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:57 pm

LGoosens wrote: ....
I decided some time ago, that I wanted to wait till the release of the Release Candidates, before I would start my translation.
....
this may be a good idea.
on the other hand, maybe the reason behind this decision is not valid, so i wanted to say a few words:
in the past (that is, phpbb 2), if the "master" language files (ie., the english ones) were changed, the translators were left alone to detect the changes and to determine what they are exactly.

however, in phpbb3, the good developers saw this suffering, and decided to provide some tools.
if you go to ACP -> System -> Language packs -> {your language}, you can see in one glance all the english language strings that were added since the last time your language was in sync, sorted by file, (and you can even augment your translation file directly from there, although you may prefer to use an editor for that...).
since we are way past beta-5 now, and by most accounts the next release is expected to be RC1, i don't see any reason to wait before someone actually begins with the translation. the 10-odd extra strings which are expected to be added do not justify the wait, especially when you have such a convenient tool to detect and report any missing language string.

this does not mean that it's not OK to wait anyway, i just wanted to make sure you knew about this nice and nifty tool.

have a good one.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by lurttinen » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:03 pm

They can still change the wording on the strings wich dont show up as a missing lang variable. (and have done that atleast in ACP and install.php during the betas)
That is why it would be good idea to hold translation untill the RC's.
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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by arod-1 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:24 pm

lurttinen wrote: They can still change the wording on the strings wich dont show up as a missing lang variable. (and have done that atleast in ACP and install.php during the betas)
That is why it would be good idea to hold translation untill the RC's.
you are right here.
it is interesting to note that "they" can continue to change strings after RC, and, if history is any indication, strings continue to be added and changed way into the actual release cycle... (in phpbb 2, the very last release, 2.0.22, contained some new language string, and the next release contains some changed strings).

unfortunately, the language tools do not include any help in detecting those changes, but in reality, the most common changes to the language files, by an order of magnitude, is the addition of new strings rather then modifications to existing ones.

in any event, i just wanted to make sure that the good LGoosens knew about the new cute tools :D :D

have a good one.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by John Hjorth » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:53 pm

There is really no reasonable reason to wait translating now.

It's all about working smarter, not harder. Constantly changing/adding/deleting laguage keys is not a problem, if you have the appropriate tools to handle the changes. As mentioned by Arod-1, the language package module in phpBB 3.0 is not fit for this.

It is about working with a decent file comparison tool.

Drop using the ACP module for this kind of work, you wont spot when SHS`adds a <strong>, changes a quote to a curly quote or the other way around, fixes a minor phrase or something like that.

Get a three-way file folder/file comparison tool for this kind of work, and you do not have to spend time searching for diffs ect, the application does it for you, and you are able to do all your work in one application.

The only application I know of that can do this kind of job is Araxis, and I can't live without it. Even WinMerge comes to short here, because it can't do everything in one application without cutting and pasting from one window to an other. Futhermore, WinMerge can't handle UTF-8 correctly.


Example :
Method in Araxis:
Left part of screen : English Beta 4 files
Middle part of screen : English Beta 5 files.
Right part of screen : You localized Beta 4 files, ready for updating.

Araxis tells you all the diffs between left and middle part of the screen, and you use the program it self to copy/edit all diffs into your localized Beta 4 files and translate additions, and when all files done, they are updated to Beta 5. - Done - over and out.

All other working methods can't compete with this - you are just wasting time doing it an other way.

Comparison stats for English Beta 4 files compared to English Beta 5 files :

Summary for all files
Between Folders 1 and 2
1128 lines in
8 pairs of unchanged files
14318 lines in
60 pairs of changed files
No inserted files
No removed files
Description Between Folders 1 and 2
Lines Text Blocks
Unchanged 7157 485
Changed 988 369
Inserted 112 53
Removed 32 12

Summary for selected files
Between Folders 1 and 2
No unchanged files
462 lines in
1 pair of changed files
No inserted files
No removed files
Description Between Folders 1 and 2
Lines Text Blocks
Unchanged 218 8
Changed 24 6
Inserted 0 0
Removed 2 1

- - - o 0 o - - -

Exactly a half year ago the Danish translation team stopped "translating" with the first release for Beta 2. Since then, we have not been "translating", but in stead updating language files to CVS versions - now on daily basis - and constantly fine tuning here, there and everywhere. It is not "translation work" any longer but to optimize providing the best possible/efficient message on each page in phpBB 3.0 in a understandable way.

And we have taken a "tour" in the English files as well for each new release of phpBB 3.0 since Beta 2, and will continue to do so, and report our finding as bugs, that might be included in the English language files. So far we have a "success rate" (Fix completed...") on those bug reports at 60+ %.

Personally I have been called about everything from beeing a "nit picker" to "moron" about this approach - but that's the way things work around here.

- - - o 0 o - - -

To wait for the language files to be stable would - to some degree - be to wait forever.
Last edited by John Hjorth on Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
John Hjorth • Official Danish phpBB language package maintainer and translator
The Danish Olympus & Ascreaus translation projectDanish phpBB support site

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Raimon » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:17 pm

You can begin with translation but a advice check every time the checkins from the cvs from phpBB.
When there is a language change you adding the change immediately in to the language file's

And also when you going to translate translate it from a live board, its easyer to translate and you notice bad language orthography and errors easier ;)

I wish also Lennart Goosen a good dutch translation for phpBB, and whe respect his choise of translation off course and whe know he can do it 8)
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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Eelke » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:01 am

LGoosens wrote: Of course you can make lots of directives on how to do the translation before you start, but I think a translation of this magnitude - which is still manageable by one person - should be managed by one person rather than a lot of them.

I would partially concur. About ten years ago I was a somewhat active member of the Amiga community (you know, the "successor" to the Commodore 64, which had revolutionary hardware when it was launched, but was marketed too much as a games machine and was crushed by the "serious" PC in the end - they could have been bigger than Apple than this point if done right, but alla). Anyway, at one point there was the ATO - Amiga Translator's Organization - that made an effort to provide translations free of charge to Amiga freeware programmers (providing translations for Amiga software was extremely simple because of language support built into the OS).

As Lennart says, when you want to undertake translating in a team - at least for Dutch translations and I bet also for many other languages - you will need some kind of guideline, because there's choices to be made (and if these choices are in the head of a single person, that makes things a lot lees complex). The "Buy Now" example is one, another good example is, how do you translate "you"? In English, addressing a person is simple, you just say "you". There's only one form, so you can never be rude, or overly formal. In Dutch, there's two possible translations of "you"; "u", which is the formal variant (it would go together with addressing a person by their last name), and "je" (similar to addressing a person by their first name). (Actually, I personally think this is a reason to provide two Dutch translations; one for sites that wish to remain formal with their users, one for sites that want to address their users in a more casual manner). Then of course there's things that could be translated in different ways. It may seem trivial that if a certain term is used consistently in the original, it should be translated consistently with a specific term as well. However, as many phrases may have multiple "correct" translations, it's easy to end up with a translation for the software that's less consistent than the original in its terminology.

One thing we did do in the translators' organizationw as proofread. We always had at least one translator, and one proofreader. So in effect, we always had a team of two people, only they had clearly distinguished tasks.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by LGoosens » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:09 pm

Hi folks,

first of all, my decision to wait until the RC's will remain. I totally agree that this is not really necessary, but I also have a lot of other things to do in the coming month, so I just hope you people will all understand why I'm waiting with this.

Now, I actually DO own a decent file comparison tool, capable of almost everything I could ever dream of, called BeyondCompare. I decided, however, that I wanted an even better tool, and maybe I'll create it myself (if nobody has yet). I want a tool created specifically for translating phpBB language files, that works better than the built-in option in the phpBB 3 ACP. What I want is something that will allow me to work on my translation any time and for any period of time I would like, preferably accessible through any web browser anywhere in the world. I just need two <textarea>'s, one with the English sentence and one where I can put in the Dutch one. And then I want a button called "Next", so I can just walk through the files sentence by sentence, without having to do anything - like selecting another line etc. - myself. And then, finally, I want it to save my progress.

Is there anything like this available?
Please tell me if there is and I will start right away!

By the way, I did NOT know of the ACP's function showing changed language variables - even though I have tested some with beta's 4 and 5 in a test environment (which is also where I am planning to test run my translation).

Now, with phpBB 2, I never really had something like a community delivering bug reports to me. I just got an email every once in a while about some typo. However, I'm willing to change that, especially because the translation has increased in size considerably. A bug tracker of course would be nice, but I'm not sure whether phpBB Group can provide for something like that, though I would like them to. Is there anyone who knows anything about phpBB Group providing such a feature - a bug tracker for every language pack - in the near future?

Also, I think a different translation for companies (who wish to remain formal by using "U") and "mainstream communities" (who wish to remain personal by using "je" instead) is a very good idea. However, offering two different versions of a language pack, is once again a decision up to phpBB Group. I will, however, contact them about this. I'm currently going to use the more formal "U", since it is the most socially accepted form.

Damn... I can't think of anything else to reply! :mad: :razz:

Oh, and of course I really appreciate the phpBB.nl team's attitude towards me as a stubborn... official translator... :lol: (I almost ended up insulting myself there... :| )

Cheers,
Lennart Goosens.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Freelancetm » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:05 pm

Let me just say that I'm glad that you (LGoossens) are going to continue translating for phpBB.

I wouldn't be waiting for RC to start translating but I respect your decision.
What I do agree with is the fact that a one-man team can do a better translation then with several team-members.

I guess we can only hope the official dutch translation will be ready when the Final phpBB3 is released.

Greetz

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by John Hjorth » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:42 pm

Freelancetm,

Naturally, as per definition, I disagree with you. There is nothing like a team of meticulous translators - under management - looking over each other's shoulders!

So far this official translation of phpBB 3.0 is a mirage.
John Hjorth • Official Danish phpBB language package maintainer and translator
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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by LGoosens » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:13 am

I think translating in a team or on your own BOTH has its benefits.

But that's not what we're here to discuss, is it? ;)

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by robert_waanders » Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:03 am

Keep up the good work Lennart , Manny thanks from a dutch phpBB-forum admin and some 10.000 users of his forum. Or in dutch "dat he'j mooi doan!!"

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