Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Having a question about translating phpBB3? Want to discuss and collaborate with people currently translating phpBB3? Here would be the correct place to do so.
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Highway of Life
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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Highway of Life » Mon May 28, 2007 12:38 am

Just as an idle reader, my take on Vic’s comments was not that the deadline would be June 3/10th (correct me if I’m wrong Vic), but that he would just be contacting the current maintainers to see their current status/progress on their respective language packs.

I agree that a deadline for the language packs would be a little ridiculous (as we know nobody is being paid to do this, but instead out of their own free time) but I don’t think Vic was saying that there was a deadline. ;) -- same as the release of phpBB3 gold.
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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Vic D'Elfant » Mon May 28, 2007 10:52 am

Highway of Life wrote:but that he would just be contacting the current maintainers to see their current status/progress on their respective language packs.
Exactly :) The translators that haven't submitted anything yet will have to provide me with some "evidence" that there is indeed a translation in the works, and that they are still active members on phpbb.com (as in that they still check their PMs). Those that don't reply within time or didn't even start translating will be removed from the translators group so other users that are willing to invest sufficient time into the translations can re-apply.

The reasoning behind this is that there are numerous people out there that are working on a translation but wouldn't be allowed to share their work because someone else applied as the language pack maintainer just before they did... it wouldn't be fair to have them wait while the actual language pack maintainer is either inactive or isn't working on the translation.
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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by ElbertF » Mon May 28, 2007 1:08 pm

Lennart contacted me regarding the tool, and I suggested a collaboration. We could share the credit and there will be no confusion. It's up to him. We had over 500 downloads in the past 3 days, I think it would be fair if we could supply the official translation.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Fridge » Mon May 28, 2007 1:59 pm

ElbertF wrote:I think it would be fair if we could supply the official translation.
I agree, the translation made by the phpbb.nl team should be the official translation, a whole team has produced this translation and now there is a topic on phpbb.nl where users can give comments and make suggestions.
The translation is already of good quality but there is always room for improvement of course, thats why the topic on phpbb.nl exist ;)

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Janmarques » Mon May 28, 2007 2:03 pm

I don't think just being the official support forum necessarily makes us the best candidates for the translation. But in this case, seeing how much effort was put into it and the number of people using it, it makes sense.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Eelke » Mon May 28, 2007 7:10 pm

A collaboration would probably be the most ideal situation.

In response to Lennart's questions, I can say that in general, I have considered these points as well (basically, for my own forum I built from the very first translation every to be released for phpBB 2 and built from there). In particular:
LGoosens wrote:Board - Forum
Board - Forum; same reasoning as you put
Forum - Rubriek or Sectie. The word "Forum" is taken to mean the entire collection of discussion rooms, usually as part of a bigger website which has sections such as "Forum", "Nieuws", "Evenementenkalender", etc. Therefore, a discussion room needs a separate term. I've used "rubriek" on my site. With the new subforums feature in phpBB 3, this means we'd have "sub-rubrieken" (just realized this. Seems strange at first glance, but maybe it's something to get used to). Maybe "sectie" and "subsectie".
Board index - Forumindex
Board index - Voorpagina. Maybe this introduces ambiguity with the front page of the site as a whole. Then again, the same goes for "Home" as you propose. Also, I'm not sure agree with how accepted the term "home" is in Dutch. "Homepage" was at one point an accepted term, but I'd say that lost its common use about 5 years ago, people speak of "websites" now. Having said that, I don't really see the problem with "Forumindex" either. I think the meaning of the word "Index" is very similar in Dutch as it is in English. I.e., if it's good enough for phpBB English, I'd say it's good enough for phpBB Dutch.
Topic/Thread - Onderwerp
I think this is a bit confusing as well. By translating Thread as "Onderwerp" (Subject in Dutch) we end up, in some places in the translations, with "the subject's subject".
I've struggled with the exact same point. I even at one point suggested, like you, to use the term "Discussie", but one of my moderators disliked that because many threads on a forum are just casual chit chat, or not so much a discussion as a question-answer structure. "Discussie" (discussion) implies there are multiple more or less conflicting standpoints, which is not always the case. More accurate would be to use a Dutch term for something like conversation, which would suggest "conversatie" or "gesprek"... On my site we've settled for calling a thread "topic" (so the English term). This means you would speak of "het onderwerp van een topic". Although strictly translated this still means "a subject's subject", to a Dutchman it sounds not by far as silly as the strict translation. Using the term "topic" in this manner is also quite common in Dutch informal language.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by LGoosens » Mon May 28, 2007 8:08 pm

Vic, I'm sorry if I got you wrong, I understand now it's not an actual deadline. It was far past midnight, maybe that's an explanation as to why I wasn't paying attention.

About a collaberation: I think that the current situation is a bit strange, but is just a symptom of the enormous growth of phpBB. Maybe it's just like DVD formats (DVD-R and DVD+R and DVD-ram etc.), or video tapes (Video 2000 and VHS, etc.): finally some manufacturer gave up and the other system was adopted. Or it could be that the translations will all live happily ever after together.

I would, as I have explained to ElbertF in a PM, like all three Dutch translations, when they're finished, to be judged by some group of linguists. I would then like them to present us with a verdict. This verdict will give users the ability to distinguish quality from slightly lower quality and download the best translation. It may seem unfair if this means that one or two translations will "suffer" from it, but I think getting a most accurate translation is the goal. Isn't it?

Now, about the changes I suggested.

For now, I'll keep the definition "Board = Forum, Forum = Forum, Subforum = Subforum" and take into consideration the possibility of "Rubriek", which is a very good suggestion, thank you Eelke.

The Forum index remains to be a problem...

And I'm still not entirely sure about the Dutch translation for "topic", since it is so fundamental and yet so confusing, whatever translation you come up with... This needs to be done right. I won't go with discussion for the reasons mentioned by Eelke, but using "topic" would be to neglect my job as a translator (person who translates things ;)).

So, any further suggestions?

Cheers,
Lennart Goosens.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by ElbertF » Mon May 28, 2007 8:46 pm

LGoosens wrote:About a collaberation: I think that the current situation is a bit strange, but is just a symptom of the enormous growth of phpBB. Maybe it's just like DVD formats (DVD-R and DVD+R and DVD-ram etc.), or video tapes (Video 2000 and VHS, etc.): finally some manufacturer gave up and the other system was adopted. Or it could be that the translations will all live happily ever after together.
Consumers clearly suffered the most from this, and the companies would have saved a lot of effort by just collaborating. But of course, there was a lot of money involved. So I understand why they did it.
LGoosens wrote:I would, as I have explained to ElbertF in a PM, like all three Dutch translations, when they're finished, to be judged by some group of linguists. I would then like them to present us with a verdict. This verdict will give users the ability to distinguish quality from slightly lower quality and download the best translation. It may seem unfair if this means that one or two translations will "suffer" from it, but I think getting a most accurate translation is the goal. Isn't it?
I don't see the point in doing exactly the same thing, then compare it, keep one and "ditch" the others. I know, I'm exaggerating.. But why not create one perfect translation together (in the true spirit of open source). Maybe those expert linguists could help out too. :P

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by LGoosens » Mon May 28, 2007 11:27 pm

ElbertF wrote:Maybe those expert linguists could help out too. :P
Maybe that's why phpBB Group should hire some professional translators for the job. Not really in the spirit of open source, but I think that it will at least guarantee quality work.

But that's just a thought.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Eelke » Tue May 29, 2007 4:24 am

LGoosens wrote:using "topic" would be to neglect my job as a translator (person who translates things ;))
With some experience of translating, and being a long time user of English-to-Dutch translations, I've found (and I'm sure any Dutchman will agree) there's such a thing as "over-translation"; trying to find purely Dutch words for terms that in their English form are completely accepted into the Dutch language. I'm not so much advocating for the use of the term "topic", but against the notion that using an English term would be neglecting your job as a translator (sometimes, being a good English-to-Dutch translator means to know when to stop ;))

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by LGoosens » Wed May 30, 2007 10:54 am

I have decided to stick with the term "forum" for "board". I am considering the use of "rubriek" (or perhaps "forumrubriek") for "forum". From this the use of either "subforum/deelforum" or "subrubriek/deelrubriek" will follow.

For "topic" I have not yet found the ultimate translation. Therefore I think I will stick with "onderwerp", and use "titel" (title) for the "subject" to avoid the "subject of the subject" problem.

Anyone who disagrees? ;) Please say so now and your objections will be noted and dealt with accordingly.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Oosterberg » Wed May 30, 2007 11:26 am

We've got it like this:

Image

I think "onderwerp" is a good name for topic, but "topic" will be known by dutch youth and internet-peoples, but for older persons is it maybe difficult to understand?
Dutch people are often good in english.

Forum for board sounds ok, subforum sounds ok.

So then you get a:

Forum
  • -Subforum Name / Group (call it subforumgroep of categorie?)
    -subforum
    -subforum enz.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Eelke » Wed May 30, 2007 12:23 pm

LGoosens wrote:For "topic" I have not yet found the ultimate translation. Therefore I think I will stick with "onderwerp", and use "titel" (title) for the "subject" to avoid the "subject of the subject" problem.
I think at least that way the "problem" has become the same as it is for any language, and has therefore really moved out of your responsibility as translator to resolve.

To clarify, the problem you describe really isn't exclusive to Dutch as a language. The problem actually is that the word "topic" (in English, or any equivalent in any other language) doesn't accurately describe the thing we now call a "topic" on a bulletin board; a series of posts that somehow are grouped together, purely because individual users hit "reply" within the context of that "topic". Hence, a term like "thread" came into existence. There may be many threads that are all essentially about the same topic/subject/onderwerp. Or, one thread may cover many different topics/subjects/onderwerpen, for that matter. Only on a board where either the users are extremely disciplined, and/or the moderation is extremely strict, will threads and topics have a 1:1 relationship. Welcome to the real world :)

Anyway, not a translator's problem to worry about, the problem is a lot more universal than exclusive to the Dutch translation. It only bubbles up here because there are not so many synonyms for "topic" in Dutch, so by taking literal translations you end up with things that are not only logically weird, but also look weird (i.e. the weirdness is a lot more immediate :))

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by LGoosens » Thu May 31, 2007 12:18 pm

I just love the word thread. However, strictly translating this would result in "draad", which is actually more like wire. And that will make it totally incomprehensible. Anyway, now I got this out of the way, I can put Photoshop (one of the favourites in my toolbox :D) to some good use and create the buttons in the GDK.

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Re: Dutch [NL] Translation for phpBB3

Post by Eelke » Thu May 31, 2007 12:29 pm

Actually, in more techy forums like Tweakers.net, "draad" or "draadje" are commonly used terms. Not in the official wording used by the software, though. It pops up sometimes on my own board as well.

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