[Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

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narqelion
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by narqelion »

t_backoff wrote: What is not modern and easy to customize in prosilver
Just about everything. Take it from someone who has been working with HTML and CSS for 15 years (longer than you've been alive apparently :P ), Prosilver is a *nightmare* for the average board admin to customize. There is a reason the table based subsilver remained so widely used and preferred, ease of customization. Sure table based layout went out of favor years ago and in fact I skinned my first tableless board back when I was IB Skins support 8 years ago but the fact remains that the average board admin/owner does not have years of web design experience and only knows enough to get by with changing a color here or there. That fact should have made ease of customization a requirement of Prosilver but instead you give them how many stylesheets to hunt and peck through? <-rhetorical. So they gravitate towards Subsilver and style authors still feel more comfortable with it as well which is why you see more custom styles based on Subsilver than Prosilver as well. You don't have to take my word for any of the claims I make above either, just do a little homework in the Support forums (going back 3 years) and you will see just how many support topics are related to Prosilver style edits and people desperate for some sort of Styling guide for Prosilver, which doesn't exist. Very telling that. You intend to dump Subsilver, great. You should also go back and tackle Prosilver with a serious makeover to get it into the same category as Subsilver was with regard to ease of customization. Taking away Subsilver without making Prosilver more user friendly will just lose you more of your user base than I think you realize. Counting on some third party to port Subsilver to 3.1 is just a placation tactic. As it would not be phpBB released it would also not be phpBB supported. Bear in mind the sheer volume of existing Subsilver based styles (>50%) that would not work with 3.1 therefore providing significant incentive for board owners NOT to upgrade. Subsilver may be ugly and archaic but it was a lifesaver even for me while I created a completely custom style immediately after conversion from 2 to 3 and the users revolted against Prosilver. There is a reason the path of least resistance is the one most frequently taken. ;)
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by narqelion »

DavidIQ wrote:
tuananhdnc wrote:Only Prosilver is really different than them.
As a software organization that strives to stand out from the other bulletin board software out there, I'm actually glad to see and hear this. ;)
Striving to stand out at the cost of usability and to the detriment of your users and their ability to change the look and feel is hardly something to brag about. ;)
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by marian0810 »

I guess there's no accounting for taste :lol: I happen to think prosilver looks absolutely hideous.

Can we keep all our existing mods in 3.1, or is this going to be like phpbb2 -> phpbb3?
And will we be forced to use automod in the new version? I hope not, I kind of like the manual thing 8-)
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by tuananhdnc »

DavidIQ wrote:
tuananhdnc wrote:Only Prosilver is really different than them.
As a software organization that strives to stand out from the other bulletin board software out there, I'm actually glad to see and hear this. ;)
Of course, it is undeniable. But did you ever think about popular user.
I know many admin has feel difficult to choices forum scripts friendly with members of their, they accept and pay for VBB not because of its features, because it has a skin easy to use and familiar with members.
Prosilver difference, but it is really friendly with popular user while they were familiar with similar styles as VBB/IPB?
I have used Prosilver, but members complained because they are too familiar with Vbulletin, IPB ... etc .. And I also know many people like me.
Last edited by tuananhdnc on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by DavidIQ »

narqelion wrote:Striving to stand out at the cost of usability and to the detriment of your users and their ability to change the look and feel is hardly something to brag about. ;)
Really? Is it THAT much easier to change styles in vB, IPB, etc.? :roll: You're basically implying that to make things easier we should just use the same general styling principles as everyone else.

I really don't see how prosilver is soooooooo much harder to change than subsilver2 and don't tell me it's because it's table-less because that's not a problem with the style and more a problem with lack of knowledge.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by DavidIQ »

marian0810 wrote:Can we keep all our existing mods in 3.1, or is this going to be like phpbb2 -> phpbb3?
And will we be forced to use automod in the new version? I hope not, I kind of like the manual thing 8-)
At the moment, it is likely that most MODs will either not work or will need some updating for them to work. Manual editing of files will still be possible but an automated MOD installer will be included in 3.1.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by rxu »

Regarding subsilver2 vs prosilver "battle".
They say "there is no accounting for tastes" (or smth. alike?).
One could like subsilver2 but another could not do, let's kill each other for that :)
What I'm trying to say is that subsilver2 is going to be dropped in 3.1 but life's going on - it's not forbidden and free to become a custom style. ;)
Prosilver is not ideal apparently (what is, though?) but it's much more complying to modern state of design, HTML and css and the style is definitely the step forward. That' was the first try to supply phpBB with the modern and valid markup.
So instead of saying just "prosilver sucks"/etc there would be much better to help the development to further improve prosilver to make it more efficient and customizable.
Just imho.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by tbackoff »

I have never had a problem with customizing prosilver, and I hardly consider myself expert on HTML / CSS or have years of web design experience.
narqelion wrote:do a little homework in the Support forums (going back 3 years) and you will see just how many support topics are related to Prosilver style edits
I've also seen a lot of topics regarding mass e-mail, permissions, groups, etc. ;)
narqelion wrote:people desperate for some sort of Styling guide for Prosilver, which doesn't exist
One doesn't exist for subsilver2 either. The only "styling guide" is basic HTML / CSS knowledge, and there are plenty of topics on those on the web.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by narqelion »

DavidIQ wrote: Really? Is it THAT much easier to change styles in vB, IPB, etc.? :roll:
I don't recall saying anything about vB, IPB etc or how easy/not easy it is to customize them, I was speaking about phpBB and Prosilver and how creating Prosilver to "stand out" *your phrase* was at the cost of your users ability to customize their boards using that style or styles based on it. ;)
DavidIQ wrote:I really don't see how prosilver is soooooooo much harder to change than subsilver2 and don't tell me it's because it's table-less because that's not a problem with the style and more a problem with lack of knowledge.
That just goes to prove you don't spend much time in the support/styles support forum dealing with the user frustration over trying to make even the smallest changes in Prosilver. Would you like links to several topics that illustrate perfectly what I mean? (how many pages is the "How to Modify Prosilver's header" topic now, up to 100 yet? :P ) I can do that at lunch if you like but I think you will find that even your support team/styles support team members will acknowledge the truth of what I have pointed out. ;) What I said was Prosilver was a nightmare for the average board admin to edit, for multiple reasons including somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 style sheets with redundant classes and yes the fact that those same average users have more experience editing HTML table based layout designs and very little with divs, floats and CSS in general. Prosilver was not designed with the average user in mind when it came to them being able to customize it and that is a fact. You can laud it all you want as some great achievement in design but it is a huge failure when it comes to usability. The CSS alone needs a machete taken to it and it needs to be simplified 1000% to compare with the ease of customization that Subsilver offered.
t_backoff wrote:I have never had a problem with customizing prosilver
Somehow I doubt that.... ;)
t_backoff wrote:I've also seen a lot of topics regarding mass e-mail, permissions, groups, etc.
You seem to have missed the point, which is that of the styles based support questions Prosilver heavily outweighs Subsilver in terms of support demand.
t_backoff wrote:One doesn't exist for subsilver2 either.
One is hardly needed for Subsilver given it's simplicity compared to Prosilver's complexity.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by naderman »

I would like to just throw in here that we are very happy to incoroporate patches that improve the performance or usability of prosilver. Either create a ticket on the tracker if it's something obvious, or start a topic on area51 to discuss your change. I am certain some of you understand better where exactly the problems with prosilver lie, and we would love to have all of you help us fix them.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by DavidIQ »

narqelion wrote:That just goes to prove you don't spend much time in the support/styles support forum dealing with the user frustration over trying to make even the smallest changes in Prosilver.
You're right...I don't so there might be more to it than I currently know.
narqelion wrote:What I said was Prosilver was a nightmare for the average board admin to edit, for multiple reasons including somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 style sheets with redundant classes and yes the fact that those same average users have more experience editing HTML table based layout designs and very little with divs, floats and CSS in general. Prosilver was not designed with the average user in mind when it came to them being able to customize it and that is a fact.
I can agree with that to some extent. As Nils already said, we welcome any feedback on how to improve the usability of prosilver over on Area 51 or on the tracker.
narqelion wrote:You can laud it all you want as some great achievement in design but it is a huge failure when it comes to usability. The CSS alone needs a machete taken to it and it needs to be simplified 1000% to compare with the ease of customization that Subsilver offered.
:lol: ok you got me there. I'll have to agree with that as I myself had some issues when I first ran into style.php and what it does. And I'm not really lauding it as the best style out there because, let's be honest, if we count the usability issues it really isn't. However the decision to go with just prosilver means that effort will be put into cleaning it up and making it more easy to modify.

There might also be some confusion for some. Just because subsilver2 will no longer be supported does not mean that someone cannot come and make a subsilver2 style based on tables and such and it won't work with the planned system. Should work just fine.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by Sajaki »

narqelion wrote:(... snip) One is hardly needed for Subsilver given it's simplicity compared to Prosilver's complexity.
A matter of opinion. subsilver jumbles everything into 1 big stylesheet where prosilver organises it in different area's of functionality (color, borders, etc) and then compiles it in the end. From a coder viewpoint that is much much cleaner. The complexity actually sits with Subsilver2.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by lurttinen »

I hope there is some form of facelift for the Prosilver. It is a bit boring style. :)
Some of the design ideas from the Prosilver concept art looks like could be used.
Personally i like how the post was wrapped around the avatar box.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by tbackoff »

narqelion wrote:
t_backoff wrote:I have never had a problem with customizing prosilver
Somehow I doubt that.... ;)
I will make this my last comment on this part of the discussion. That was my first topic when I joined phpBB and if you read the topic, you will see that it is not a question regarding styling prosilver, but a question on a custom piece of HTML / CSS that is added to prosilver.

With regards to your other points - fair enough. ;)
lurttinen wrote:Personally i like how the post was wrapped around the avatar box.
This is always something that bothered me, but not enough to post a ticket about it. It would be nice if the developers slipped this in to the release though.
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Re: [Discuss] phpBB “Ascraeus” 3.1 Feature Freeze

Post by narqelion »

Sajaki wrote:A matter of opinion.
Not really. Is is a reasonable conclusion of fact based on actual data points of support questions split between the two styles. You generally do not need to provide detailed skinning guides for skins that are simple and intuitive as the answers to how do I.. generally present themselves when looking at the code whereas a skin like Prosilver is so complex it gives you a headache just trying to figure out in which stylesheet to edit a particular class when that class is duplicated in other stylesheets. :? I've had support team staff ask me for help with Prosilver's CSS because even they couldn't figure it out and you would be surprised how many still get the answers wrong... :P
Sajaki wrote:subsilver jumbles everything into 1 big stylesheet where prosilver organises it in different area's of functionality (color, borders, etc) and then compiles it in the end.
Not the most solid of ground to try and argue from....Subsilver's stylesheet is 666 lines of code, hardly what I would define as "1 big stylesheet" when compared to the amount of lines of code Prosilver uses across its multiple compiled stylesheets, ~4500 lines of code combined. LOL! Of course they had to split it up into multiple files! :lol:
Sajaki wrote:From a coder viewpoint that is much much cleaner.
That is the whole problem, not looking at it from the "user" point of view. The average phpBB board admin is NOT a coder, they struggle with mods and customizing styles. They just was to run/admin a bulletin board and not need to acquire web development skills in order to do so. The harder you make something to integrate into a users website (aka customize) the less likely they will be to use it. Simplifying Prosilver's existing CSS would be the ideal place to start if you want to address most of the Prosilver support issues that board admins struggle with. I personally found that back in Jan 2009 when I was trying to port the existing phpBB2 style to the new version that it was easier for me to literally not base it off of Prosilver but instead strip the templates of all PS CSS and write my own.
Sajaki wrote:The complexity actually sits with Subsilver2.
Not when it comes to usability and figuring out what you need to edit where to achieve X. :)
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