phpBB vs. vBulletin

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MarkTheDaemon
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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by MarkTheDaemon » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:29 pm

XenForo seems to be doing what phpBB did back in the day, create a quality product to serve a market that isn't being that well represented at the moment. I haven't had chance to have a proper look at XenForo admittedly but it looks a well polished product that would sit well in the high end consumer/business market.
Pony99CA wrote:Some people probably think that a 1970 Mustang feels "dated", too. :lol:
Comparing tangible products with a collectors/vintage view is very different to software products, like apples and oranges. We aren't all still running Windows 95 because we like the style are we?

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Pony99CA » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:34 am

MarkTheDaemon wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:Some people probably think that a 1970 Mustang feels "dated", too. :lol:
Comparing tangible producs with a collectors/vintage view is very different to software products, like apples and oranges.
I wasn't referring to the collector/vintage mentality, but the driver's experience (including things like gauges, seating, etc.). Can you accept that some people might prefer that older style of car to newer ones?
MarkTheDaemon wrote:We aren't all still running Windows 95 because we like the style are we?
Perhaps not, but at least Windows XP (which some people still are running; my employer just migrated us to Windows 7 last month, but some machines are still running XP) allowed the Windows Classic UI (which I used).

The basic point is that, if you get comfortable with a certain way of doing things, change can be jarring. (I'm looking at you, Microsoft Office ribbon. :lol:)

Steve

P.S. I can compare apples and oranges quite easily, so I find that metaphor rather trite. For example, oranges are tastier than apples (to me). BOOM! I can also compare any two items you might choose to name. Oxygen and dachshunds? Oxygen is easier to breathe, while dachshunds are more fun to pet.

If you want to say something is a bad analogy, just say that. (OK, it's a pet peeve of mine. :D)
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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by MarkTheDaemon » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:39 pm

Pony99CA wrote: I wasn't referring to the collector/vintage mentality, but the driver's experience (including things like gauges, seating, etc.). Can you accept that some people might prefer that older style of car to newer ones?
Sure, but if we all had that attitude towards things we'd all still be riding round in horse and carts and living in caves. Sometimes advancement is a good thing and you need to push people towards it. Change or die as the theory says.

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Malphas » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:53 pm

Pony99CA wrote:
Malphas wrote:To answer your question Robert, it's not a case of any particular feature in XenForo that makes it superior to phpBB + MODs in my view, it's more the fact that it doesn't feel dated the way phpBB does, it feels slick and modern and comparable to a modern Web 2.0 website like Facebook/Youtube/Twitter/Tumblr/etc., whilst phpBB - even heavily modded - still feels like something out of the early 2000's to me (and from what I hear from my users).
Some people prefer form over function. (I know -- you'll say that Xenforo has both. ;))

While I know that AJAX is nice and can help speed things up a bit, I don't care that much if I have to take a few extra seconds to register or post. And I don't have a Facebook or Twitter account, so Facebook and Twitter log-ins are meaningless to me (although I certainly understand that it's a big deal to others). (And just for the record, I have no problem with a board adding social integration. The motto of phpBB is "Creating Communities", not "Creating Bulletin Boards", and social can help with that.)

Some people probably think that a 1970 Mustang feels "dated", too. :lol:

Steve
Fair enough, but I'm more interested in the general consensus of my userbase than individual anecdotes.

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Pony99CA » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:01 pm

MarkTheDaemon wrote:
Pony99CA wrote: I wasn't referring to the collector/vintage mentality, but the driver's experience (including things like gauges, seating, etc.). Can you accept that some people might prefer that older style of car to newer ones?
Sure, but if we all had that attitude towards things we'd all still be riding round in horse and carts and living in caves. Sometimes advancement is a good thing and you need to push people towards it. Change or die as the theory says.
Attacking a straw man -- we don't all have that attitude. The Amish seem to do very well with their horses and buggies, and haven't died off.

However, in order to force people to move, there had better be a very compelling reason to do so. "The UI looks dated" is not very compelling to me. "Web 2.0 is a vast improvement" is certainly more compelling, but to how many people?
Malphas wrote:Fair enough, but I'm more interested in the general consensus of my userbase than individual anecdotes.
And that consensus is, yes, a collection of individual anecdotes. :D To move, I think that you need more than a 50%+1 majority; you'd need a mandate (ah, political season).

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by noth » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:43 pm

definitely, and another thing
Malphas wrote: To those of us running large boards and websites, the amount vBulletin costs is pretty much a non-issue, I can see why it'd obviously be a consideration for small communities though. But yeah, my point is I don't think the fact phpBB is free (as in beer) is a crucial factor in itself for medium to large forums, but maybe I'm wrong. In any case vBulletin is on the decline now, so I wouldn't advise anyone to take it up (admittedly this thread was started two years ago), not least because their developers jumped ship to found XenForo.
so vBulletin is definitely on the decline now, but why?

for the answer defined in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XenForo we see in the 2nd paragraph on the XenForo page:
One of the developers of XenForo, Kier Darby originally served as a lead developer for the community platform vBulletin. The original owner of the software, Jelsoft, was acquired by the American new media company Internet Brands in 2007. Disagreements between the lead developers and the new management over matters involving the next big release of vBulletin, version 4.0 (including a rejection of their desire to make 4.0 a complete rewrite of the platform as opposed to Internet Brands preferring the use of agile development) led most of the original vBulletin developers to step down from employment at Internet Brands in 2009.[3][4]
so this answer leads to the next question.......

Q the next big release of vBulletin, version 4.0? is it out yet? if so what is so marvellous about the vBulletin, version 4.0 as opposed to the stick in the mud paltry vBulletin, version 3.0??

Legal Action has spurred curious allegations including that XenForo was re-factored from vBulletin code - well would you believe it? XenForo was re-factored from vBulletin ? NO WAY!!
One day before the originally scheduled release for the first public beta of XenForo in October 2010, Internet Brands announced that it would file a lawsuit against the XenForo team in the United Kingdom claiming; copyright infringement of property acquired by Internet Brands, that code in XenForo was re-factored from vBulletin code (despite XenForo's claim that the system was built from the ground up using an object-oriented framework and the fact that a public release had not even been made yet, and thus IB could not possibly have had a look at the XenForo code),
the entire Wikipedia page on XenForo is basically the fall out of and the litigation against the split vBulletin coders plus a table of version numbers, take a look!
Malphas wrote:Indeed. XenForo is definitely the best forum software available right now by a considerable margin, in my opinion.
And the reason to be sure is that .....
Malphas wrote: it's not a case of any particular feature in XenForo that makes it superior to phpBB + MODs in my view, it's more the fact that it doesn't feel dated the way phpBB does, it feels slick and modern and comparable to a modern Web 2.0 website like Facebook/Youtube/Twitter/Tumblr/etc., whilst phpBB - even heavily modded - still feels like something out of the early 2000's to me (and from what I hear from my users).
so where does all this leave vBulletin? who is left at vBulletin who didn't split with the lead coders to do XenForo? have they just been treading water since or has a fabulous vBulletin, version 4.0 hit town that I am simply oblivious to?

Maybe it's time for a new thread......

Not phpBB vs vBulletin, no way that is old hat and past tense!

..... but surely phpBB vs XenForo

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Arty » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:16 pm

noth wrote:so vBulletin is definitely on the decline now, but why?
Because of IB's decision to base 4.0 on 3.0 instead of doing a complete rewrite. They've messed up code so badly that it doesn't make much sense, it is full of bugs and is nightmare to maintain.
noth wrote:Legal Action has spurred curious allegations including that XenForo was re-factored from vBulletin code - well would you believe it? XenForo was re-factored from vBulletin ? NO WAY!!
I've seen vBulletin code and I do own XenForo license. There is absolutely nothing similar in it. As for lawsuit, its nothing but bullying tactic used by IB. They are doing everything they can to delay lawsuit to make XenForo developers spend more money on lawyers, hoping XF will go bust because of money. Its disgusting.
noth wrote:..... but surely phpBB vs XenForo
With phpBB 4 - yep. With phpBB 3 - not a chance.
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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Malphas » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:13 am

Pony99CA wrote:
Malphas wrote:Fair enough, but I'm more interested in the general consensus of my userbase than individual anecdotes.
And that consensus is, yes, a collection of individual anecdotes. :D To move, I think that you need more than a 50%+1 majority; you'd need a mandate (ah, political season).

Steve
Not really, you just use common sense. If you're running your community properly you should be able to gauge these things, and notice swelling dissatisfaction. As for people being "forced" to move or whatever, the burden of migrating forum software is on whoever is maintaining the website, it should be relatively hassle free for the users, essentially they just login one day and notice the UI is snappier.

Doing things by mandates, polls, etc. is amateurish and pointless in my opinion; it's your job to run the technical aspects of the community, without offloading decision making responsibility on to the userbase, who don't always - and shouldn't be expected to - even know what forum software is. On a sidenote, in my experience people largely fall into two groups - those who like improvements and new features, etc. and those who don't care all that much; people who prefer things to stay the same forever are a very small minority at best. For instance, I've never once heard anyone complain about no longer having to have a page refresh when making a post, to name just one improvement XenForo has over phpBB.

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Pony99CA » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:27 pm

Malphas wrote:As for people being "forced" to move or whatever, the burden of migrating forum software is on whoever is maintaining the website, it should be relatively hassle free for the users, essentially they just login one day and notice the UI is snappier.
That's only true if the navigation is basically the same. For example, if the location of links or buttons has changed, people will have a learning curve to use the site as productively as they did before.

I wonder how many users had complaints when a phpBB 2.x board using subSilver switched to a phpBB 3.x board using ProSilver.
Malphas wrote:For instance, I've never once heard anyone complain about no longer having to have a page refresh when making a post, to name just one improvement XenForo has over phpBB.
Yeah, you cherry picked one of the things that a lot of people have complained about (and there's a simple way to turn off, if I recall correctly). Look at the overall learning curve of a switch, not just one or two features.

Now maybe the learning curve isn't steep, but it's probably there. I suspect that newbies and (gasp) older people will have longer learning curves. Sure, people can adapt to most things, but if there's not a "mandate" for change (which doesn't mean "amateurish" :roll: things like polls, but includes complaints -- or "swelling dissatisfaction" -- from large numbers of users), I don't think there's much of a reason to change.

Also remember that, unless you run the board for a living, running the board is probably a small fraction of your daily activity, so your typical admin may not be as in touch with their users as you are. Based on your past comments, you seem to be running a commercial or revenue-generating board, which I suspect is atypical of most phpBB admins.

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by dimitri2012 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:33 pm

phpBB is good when you are a simple user who installs it and runs it, thats it

if you are a developer it will become your worst fucking nightmare, doing things like SEO, real spam counter-measures, improving the code, etc etc etc, is a FUCKING PAIN bloated code is everywhere, one things go to another and that another goes to another and to another and then to the first to go to another, is insane... Pre-made MODs are also shit, most of them are bloated code schema with leads to dangerous SQL injections, XSS, RFI, etc... worst of all is you can't update this shit after making changes lol, hope phpBB4 came out with some plugins system like wordpress, with integration of more feautures, with better spam control, with limited moderator access, with configurables CRON, etc...

Well i was kind of mad sorry about that i know is free :P

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:30 am

dimitri2012 wrote:phpBB is good when you are a simple user who installs it and runs it, thats it

if you are a developer it will become your worst *beep* nightmare, doing things like SEO, real spam counter-measures, improving the code, etc etc etc, is a *beep* PAIN bloated code is everywhere, one things go to another and that another goes to another and to another and then to the first to go to another, is insane... Pre-made MODs are also *beep*, most of them are bloated code schema with leads to dangerous SQL injections, XSS, RFI, etc... worst of all is you can't update this *beep* after making changes lol, hope phpBB4 came out with some plugins system like wordpress, with integration of more feautures, with better spam control, with limited moderator access, with configurables CRON, etc...

Well i was kind of mad sorry about that i know is free :P
it is not just because it is free that makes it good. I really doubt that it would be the most used bulletin board software in the world if it was all that you said. I wonder what makes you more of an expert than all the coders over the years that have worked to bring phpbb to where it is now? I wonder if it is all that insecure why phpbb3 has not had any exploits of magnitude since it came out?

This is not about me being a "fanboy" ( I would be happy to be a boy again :lol: ) , but most everything you posted is simply not true.

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Pony99CA » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:32 am

dimitri2012 wrote:phpBB is good when you are a simple user who installs it and runs it, thats it

if you are a developer it will become your worst *beep* nightmare, doing things like SEO, real spam counter-measures, improving the code, etc etc etc, is a *beep* PAIN bloated code is everywhere, one things go to another and that another goes to another and to another and then to the first to go to another, is insane...
Define "real spam counter-measures". For most people, Q&A CAPTCHA works fine. I also managed to enable CAPTCHA on every posting page without much difficulty at all.

Define "bloated code". phpBB takes pride in being fairly light.
dimitri2012 wrote:Pre-made MODs are also *beep*, most of them are bloated code schema with leads to dangerous SQL injections, XSS, RFI, etc...
MODs do get security reviews. Do you have any real examples of a MOD that allowed those exploits?
dimitri2012 wrote:worst of all is you can't update this *beep* after making changes
phpBB has an updater that supposedly works on boards with hundreds of MODs. I've used it on my test board with mixed results (some of the default language files that I added lines to lost those lines during an update).
dimitri2012 wrote:hope phpBB4 came out with some plugins system like wordpress, with integration of more feautures, with better spam control, with limited moderator access, with configurables CRON, etc...
What are you talking about? phpBB 3.1 will have extensions (basically plug-ins), and phpBB 3.0 has limited moderator access (depending on what you mean).
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: it is not just because it is free that makes it good. I really doubt that it would be the most used bulletin board software in the world if it was all that you said. I wonder what makes you more of an expert than all the coders over the years that have worked to bring phpbb to where it is now? I wonder if it is all that insecure why phpbb3 has not had any exploits of magnitude since it came out?
Technically, he said that MODs were insecure, not phpBB itself.

As for what makes him an expert, I'd guess his long two-week and three-post history here. :roll:

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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Dog Cow » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:51 pm

Pony99CA wrote: Define "bloated code". phpBB takes pride in being fairly light.
phpBB 3 takes up a lot of RAM serving pages IMO. I think part of it is due to all the UTF-8 files. Ever looked at those code tables? They're huge.
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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by Arty » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:17 pm

vBulletin 5 Beta is out.

From now on there is no such thing as phpBB vs vBulletin. vBulletin changed from forum software to a website software with a forum component.

There is no such thing as vBulletin vs anything really. Its not a forum any more, so it can't be compared to any forums. Its not even half of what WordPress and Drupal are as CMS, so its useless as CMS ether. Its a pile of crap.

Beta testers report 115 SQL queries on main page! Remember phpBB 2 FM (premodded phpBB 2 with all possible mods slapped together + new bugs)? That's what vBulletin has become.
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Re: phpBB vs. vBulletin

Post by MichaelC » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Arty wrote:vBulletin 5 Beta is out.

From now on there is no such thing as phpBB vs vBulletin. vBulletin changed from forum software to a website software with a forum component.

There is no such thing as vBulletin vs anything really. Its not a forum any more, so it can't be compared to any forums. Its not even half of what WordPress and Drupal are as CMS, so its useless as CMS ether. Its a pile of crap.

Beta testers report 115 SQL queries on main page! Remember phpBB 2 FM (premodded phpBB 2 with all possible mods slapped together + new bugs)? That's what vBulletin has become.
Yup, also it is extremely buggy (even for a beta, it seems more like repo snapshot quality) and I was finding topics were just coming up with errors constantly, its was also very sluggish.

I really don't think vB can be considered a contender in the Forum Software market for much longer. There market share was already getting smaller, and with vB5 that will drop as they are now primarily a CMS but un-able to match Drupal and Co.

They also seem to have tried to copy the look of MyBB and mixed it in with XenForo's layout.
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