Should paintball be regulated like firearms?

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CLee
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Post by CLee »

[i]The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition[/i] wrote: fire•arm n. A weapon, especially a pistol or rifle, capable of firing a projectile and using an explosive charge as a propellant.

So the question is, can a paintball gun really be called a firearm? Considering that it uses compressed air as a propellant instead of an explosive charge. And if it is a firearm, what makes it different from a crossbow--which isn't called a firearm by any stretch?

That gets me thinking, are there any states that regulate the sale of bows? They are far more dangerous then a paintball gun after all, even though they don't have the stigma of "looking" like a gun.

And here is another random thought. If you are somehow able to prevent minors from getting their hands on paintball guns, what prevents them from going back to slingshots instead? As I said before, it's stupid to try and regulate an item in an attempt to prevent it from being used for stupid behavior such as vandalism. You are better off going after the vandals instead.
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Post by Darth Wong »

CLee wrote: it's stupid to try and regulate an item in an attempt to prevent it from being used for stupid behavior such as vandalism. You are better off going after the vandals instead.

That's a false dilemma; one can do both.
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Post by CLee »

Darth, what I was getting at what that you are far better off spending your time and effort in something where you are likely to get results then in something that won't impede the behavior you are trying to stop and will ultimately annoy everyone else.
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Post by MrTorrance »

CLee wrote: So the question is, can a paintball gun really be called a firearm? Considering that it uses compressed air as a propellant instead of an explosive charge. And if it is a firearm, what makes it different from a crossbow--which isn't called a firearm by any stretch?

The question at hand is not whether paintball guns are firearms, but should the be treated as such.
CLee wrote: That gets me thinking, are there any states that regulate the sale of bows? They are far more dangerous then a paintball gun after all, even though they don't have the stigma of "looking" like a gun.


Bows are far more dangerous and there are many laws governing the use of them. I know in my state it's illegal to shoot one in city limits. But, again who the hell goes around shooting arrows at cars and homes on a Saturday night. I've never heard of anything like that happening before and if anyone can find a story about it in a newspaper or on a newsfeed somewhere, that would be very cool of you.
CLee wrote: And here is another random thought. If you are somehow able to prevent minors from getting their hands on paintball guns, what prevents them from going back to slingshots instead? As I said before, it's stupid to try and regulate an item in an attempt to prevent it from being used for stupid behavior such as vandalism. You are better off going after the vandals instead.


Just one thing to say...slingshots don't fire full auto or in 3-round burst.
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Post by MrTorrance »

Looked for articles about bow related vandalism but all I found was the crossbow-driveby. Also some legal junk I found, including some rather restrictive UK laws regaurding air guns.

Crossbow drive-by:
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/11/news_ ... char.shtml
UK Anti-Social Behavior Act 2003:
http://www.ukpsf.com/paintballandthelaw ... Act%202003 AND
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/30038--f.htm#37
Idaho Firearms Statutes:
http://www3.state.id.us/idstat/TOC/18033KTOC.html
Idaho Bow Laws...this is all I could find:
http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst ... 60150001.K
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Post by CLee »

MrTorrance wrote: The question at hand is not whether paintball guns are firearms, but should the be treated as such.

Legally no, because paintball guns does not have anywhere near the same level of lethality as firearms. Firearms are regulated so much because of their lethality, not because some idiots can use them to shot windows out.
MrTorrance wrote: Bows are far more dangerous and there are many laws governing the use of them. I know in my state it's illegal to shoot one in city limits. But, again who the hell goes around shooting arrows at cars and homes on a Saturday night. I've never heard of anything like that happening before and if anyone can find a story about it in a newspaper or on a newsfeed somewhere, that would be very cool of you.

Doesn't prevent them from being used for vandalism.
MrTorrance wrote: Just one thing to say...slingshots don't fire full auto or in 3-round burst.

And that is important because? Vandalism is still vandalism no matter who many paintballs/rocks you fire at a window.
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Post by Kanuck »

Techie-Micheal wrote: So, instead of someone accepting responsiblity for immature kids, there shouldn't be regulations and/or laws governing the misuse of a firearm? I guess that would have an interesting Darwin effect, but personally I prefer to not be part of that. In the US, there are laws governing the age of who is allowed to purchase a gun. Does that mean kids don't find ways around that? No. However, it does keep just anybody from walking in there and asking for a gun.

Firstly, it's not a firearm; it's a paintball gun/marker. It is a device that propels a ball of paint at a high enough speed to cause it to break upon impact, intended for use in tactical games.

Yes, a paintball gun can feasibly be used to commit vandalism. You can also break car windows with a baseball bat, throw a toaster from a highway overpass through somebody's windshield, poison somebody's drink with household cleaning products, turn CDs into deadly projectiles with nothing more than a Dremel... the possibilities are endless.

Obviously, it's a question of where you draw the line. If people had entirely stopped playing baseball, baseball bats could easily be outlawed. If toast was discovered to cause cancer, toaster sales could be prohibited. If handguns were more commonly used to shoot people than to hunt or fire at a gun range, then they could be prohibited (oh, wait).

The point is, where the lines are currently drawn is more than a bit stupid. They inconvenience a whole lot of people using them for legitimate purposes; and despite what their intentions may have been, those policies do not prevent the minority from wreaking havoc with those items.
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Post by NarrowPathPilgrim »

The title to this topic is "Should paintball be regulated like firearms?" I am going to try to make the point that Firearms should NOT be regulated.
Second Amendment Of The US Constitution wrote: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed


Here are some quotes of the quotes from the founding fathers giving their point of view:
Thomas Jefferson wrote: No citizen shall be debarred the use of arms within his own lands

Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. wrote: What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 wrote: They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787) wrote: Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.

Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788 wrote: Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.

Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788 wrote: Whereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it.

The Virginia delegation's recommended bill of rights wrote: That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789) wrote: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country...


This is just a small amount of the quotes of the founders. Gun control has always and will always be used to control the people. Look at these quotes:
George Mason - Delegate to the Constitutional Convention - Father Of The Bill Of Rights wrote: Forty years ago, when the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British parliament was advised to disarm the people. That it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them. But that they should not do it openly; but to weaken them and let them sink gradually.

Adolf Hitler, Germany, 1935 wrote: This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!

Did you notice who said that, and what year it was? Arming the population is the best and most efficient way to prevent crime. Switzerland has compulsorily gun ownership by all able-bodied men, and consequently has one of the lowest crime rates anywhere.

Even though America has almost erased our Constitutional rights, I wish to make one thing clear. Our Bill of Rights does not grant rights, it preserves and guarantees pre-existing individual and God-given rights. The Declaration Of Independence states it thus:
WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
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Post by Slimeboy »

Why should the average joe have a gun?
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Post by NarrowPathPilgrim »

The reason that it is important for the people to bear arms is so that they can keep the Government (which derives its just powers by the governed) in order.
I believe that the above quotes explain that quite well.
James Madison Said The Following
Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace.


Once Again, This is only a very small amount of the quotes concerning this subject; I strongly recommend that you research the subject yourself.
Last edited by NarrowPathPilgrim on Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Anon »

To argue that people need guns to survive is non sensical
  • Japan
    Singapore
    U.K
    Netherlands
    Spain
    Germany
    Italy
    Israel
    Australia
    Canada
    France
    Switzerland
    Finland
    New Zealand
    Source
These countries are some that have laws either banning or prohibiting use of some or all guns. Yet you don't see government officals going around killing innocent civilans because they don't have guns. So why is America so different that they need guns for safety?
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Post by NarrowPathPilgrim »

Switzerland
...
These countries are some that have laws either banning or prohibiting use of some or all guns.

WOW, you sure choose the wrong country there, Switzerland has a citizen militia (just like in America, the only difference is that over there they take it seriously) and most all men between the ages of 21 and 32 are required to keep fully automatic machine guns in their home. Consequently it has one of the lowest crime rates anywhere.

Here is one of many sources you can get this info from

If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them
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Post by FF8Jake` »

NarrowPathPilgrim wrote: If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them
Oh please, don't get this ignorant topic going in an even more ignorant direction. This isn't the past, and things have changed. Your arguments just feed the anti-government private communty hicks living in the woods of Southern Oklahoma, threatening to shoot anything that "takes away their rights", while they refuse to pay taxes and tag the cars they drive. If you want to carry a gun that badly, go join the army or something.

So...

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!=
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And...
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^ Pit made that. <3 Pit

So...
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Post by Anon »

NarrowPathPilgrim wrote:
Switzerland
...
These countries are some that have laws either banning or prohibiting use of some or all guns.

WOW, you sure choose the wrong country there, Switzerland has a citizen militia (just like in America, the only difference is that over there they take it seriously) and most all men between the ages of 21 and 32 are required to keep fully automatic machine guns in their home. Consequently it has one of the lowest crime rates anywhere.

Here is one of many sources you can get this info from

If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them


Ok. We take out one country. That's still 11 countries that have antigun laws that are doing just fine. Or are we going to nitpick and find countries that don't have these laws?
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Post by Magnotta »

NarrowPathPilgrim wrote: If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them


How philisophical, keep in mind though that "an eye for an eye gives the world very bad depth perception"

NarrowPathPilgrim wrote: The reason that it is important for the people to bear arms is so that they can keep the Government (which derives its just powers by the governed) in order.


I'm sorry, but that is the most neive statement I have ever heard. The American government can crush you like a bug in an instant. Heck, the American army could destroy most of the countries in the world in the matter of seconds should it want to(hey, you've got to admit, Iraq was no where near a display of the American army's power). No group of civillians cold do a thing, you are powerless, as are most citizens in most countries. Rarely has a civilian movement had any impact, with the exceptions of Lebenon and Ukrain recently, however they are far diferent countries compared to those in North America. If you want to tell George Dubya he's doing a crappy job by pointing a pistol in his face, I'll support you(heck, I wouldn't mine if you pulled the trigger) but realize that even if you had a group of 500-1000 you'd all be killed before even making it into the White House doors.


Anon: for your list, Canada is not as fee of guns as you'd like to think. People can get them, rather easily too. And when Canada did start mandetory gun registration, it was a joke, with tons of wasted time and money.
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