why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by DavidIQ » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

You are seriously off base if you really think that your upgrade issue or anyone else's is all because of FontAwesome. That is such a tiny insignificant part of 3.2 that if we didn't use it it would make absolutely no difference to the rest of the core.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by Volksdevil » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:16 pm

Of course I don't, but that is the only real difference the man in the street will see. Man in the street sees near zero difference when looking at a 3.1 or 3.2 board...And yet I've got all this damn hassle.

So PHP7 support then...and a load of other techy jargon that I'm not really interested in when just wanting to run a community. HTML and CSS...fine, anything else, I don't want to have to delve into.

The auto update has always been essential for me, but it fails at the first hurdle (Which I've reported with no response :roll: ) Easy to fix an incorrect link in the package surely!? Plus it's obviously going to be phased out anyway.

And then the instructions are confusing as hell from thereon in.
'Delete files' where it used to say 'These files will be deleted', then you have members on this board being snarkily asked, why did you delete files? Then there's all the broken pages, errors, extensions etc. Just way too many to list.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by warmweer » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:54 pm

Volksdevil wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:57 pm
...
I realise it's an upgrade, of all the 'updates' I ever did right through 3.0 up to 3.1 I never had an issue with tons of modified/hand coding, ...
Well ..., I updated from version 2 to 3.0 with lots of modifications and as was to be expected, I had to rewrite all my modifications and had to hope that some mods for v2 would be rewritten to work on3.0 (luckily some became standard features and others were ported eventually).
From 3.0 to 3.1 was another story since rewriting my mods wasn't as easy as I thought but I knew that before upgrading. 3.1 to 3.2 is even more difficult due to my remaining core-edits.
BUT ::: upgrading a clean board (unmodified) has never been a problem (*keeping fingers crossed*). I did get the timeout problem online with 1 forum, but upgraded on localhost and then just uploaded. 2 other board upgraded flawlessly ( and then reinstalled extensions + some core-edits).

The thing is, core edits are OK as long as you can handle then yourself but one shouldn't expect the phpBB-team to solve those problems.

BTW I understand coding logic but don't really know php well enough to write something from zero, but using the tools available + using the existing extensions as examples seems to work well enough for me.

The thing is that most of the error claims I read about here, are due to the actions undertaken (and not undertaken) by people trying to upgrade without even reading the info beforehand (e.g. minimum specifications required for 3.2) (and I will also add, asking questions which have been asked and answered hundred times in the forum).
BTW, I am just a user, no connection with phpBB at all [end rant]
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by Volksdevil » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:19 pm

warmweer wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:54 pm
but one shouldn't expect the phpBB-team to solve those problems.
Auto update.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by warmweer » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:31 pm

Volksdevil wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:19 pm
warmweer wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:54 pm
but one shouldn't expect the phpBB-team to solve those problems.
Auto update.
hmm, that's a tricky one.
Remember phpBB2 where modifications came with a file full of FINDs and DELETEs or ADDs. Everybody was happy until they found out that previous modifications could have altered the string which was supposed to be the FIND. Later, phpBB3, IIRC, came with an automated modification system which (not 100% sure about this since I never used that system) kept backups of each startset and could undo changes and reset the forum to a previous state.
Like I said, I never used it because I was 100 % sure that something could go wrong (e.g. updates making a mod file doing unexpected things, or wrong instructions, especially when it was the second instance of a FIND which should have been changed instead of the first encountered, or some generated files being deleted by the user). Fact is there were many posts about something going wrong. I'm not saying that the system was bad - I'm saying that the system cannot foresee everything and people seem to think that everthing released is riskfree.
The way I see it with the AutoUpdate in 3.2 is exactly the same: it's a new product, thoroughly tested I'm sure, and errors in it should be fixed but until they are it's a product which apparently doesn't fulfil the expectations.

I agree that since it's released by phpBB it should be fixed (and the discussion about the future is on Area51) but people who use modified core files on 3.1 should understand what they are doing and at the least
a) keep a backup, and
b) test the upgrade on a copy.

So yes: Autoupdate is not (rephrase: seems not to be) the product which lives up to "our" expectations and the phpBB team should do something about it. But what pisses me off is the tone of some posts when clearly the poster neglected to do the intelligent thing (no Backup, no testing, no reading) and then complains that they've lost their forum and are "forced" to change forumsoftware.

About the topic title: it was never a headache for me to upgrade or update and seeing how many users have succeeded in upgrading, the use of the word ALWAYS is not warranted.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by AmigoJack » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:20 am

warmweer wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:31 pm
what pisses me off is the tone of some posts when clearly the poster neglected to do the intelligent thing (no Backup, no testing, no reading) and then complains that they've lost their forum and are "forced" to change forumsoftware.
Whenever I asked people why they did something but didn't do this and that they mostly replied I would be rude. When you modify files the "easiest" thing to do is to compare the unmodified release of your installation with the new release and go thru each file and its differences - then you can easily inspect each code change and either copy it or adapt to it. Of course, this takes some time.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by Mick » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:54 am

Board ownership comes with responsibility and part of that responsibility is due diligence.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by Holger » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:53 pm

koraldon wrote:
Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:03 am
You really thnk there are more active communites on phpbb than xenforo/VB or Facebook?
Ok, I can see the problem this topic is based on ...





Sorry, but Robert gave a very comprehensive and structured instruction in the second or third post of this topic.
If you cannot use ZIP and/or FTP the problem is on a WHOLY different level!
Those are the only tools you need. And as a forum-owner you have to know how to use that. And the steps are as clear as they can get.
Now, Roberts explanation is basic and very easy. But I can see that todays Facebook-user attention span is not long enough to follow those steps from beginning to the end.

Folks, re-read Roberts instructions.
Where in those instructions is a problem?
BACKUP!, download, unzip, delete some files, upload some files, run the updater.

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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by invenio » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm

AmigoJack wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:20 am
Whenever I asked people why they did something but didn't do this
It's because many people that want to run a bulletin board are not IT professionals or knowledgeable about running servers. Nor do they want to be. It's also not typical of their experience with software upgrades.

Do you backup your Microsoft office files when you upgrade to a new version? Hell, most people's phone update their software without any user intervention at all (I just wake up and I get a little notification that 3 of my programs were updated).

This is the huge disconnect that people are missing.

We have computer savvy people saying "how could you not back up your database and files, and go through the 18 step upgrade process that is outlined."

Then the other side is, why do you have to use ftp, download, decompress, delete specific directories, upload, go to some /install folder on the page, then delete more directories.... Why is this so vastly different (and complex) compared to every other software I've done up to now?

Not saying one is right or not. But the divide seems really big and both parties don't seem to appreciate this fact.

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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by Holger » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:02 pm

You cannot compare web-pages/-forums with apps and software running on standarized platforms with core not changable.

The difference between Windows, .... and a webserver is that you can edit a webserver to an extend that nothing will run anymore.
And an auto-update/-upgrade tends to fail because almost every server is configured differently.



But I know, in a time where many people think Facebook is THE internet and that a Facebook-page is "their Facebook" ...

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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by warmweer » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:11 pm

invenio wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm
It's because many people that want to run a bulletin board are not IT professionals or knowledgeable about running servers.
Seems they aren't knowledgeable about reading either.
invenio wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm
Nor do they want to be.
They don't have to be, it's their choice. But just pressing a button with automated installs, not really knowing what's going to happen and nothing to fall back on when things don't go the expected way: who is really to blame here?
invenio wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm
It's also not typical of their experience with software upgrades.
Unfortunately true and I also made that mistake half a life ago, but only once (ermm, I am talking about software, nothing else 8-) )
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by Ger » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:22 pm

invenio wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm
AmigoJack wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:20 am
Whenever I asked people why they did something but didn't do this
It's because many people that want to run a bulletin board are not IT professionals or knowledgeable about running servers. Nor do they want to be. It's also not typical of their experience with software upgrades.

Do you backup your Microsoft office files when you upgrade to a new version? Hell, most people's phone update their software without any user intervention at all (I just wake up and I get a little notification that 3 of my programs were updated).

This is the huge disconnect that people are missing.

We have computer savvy people saying "how could you not back up your database and files, and go through the 18 step upgrade process that is outlined."

Then the other side is, why do you have to use ftp, download, decompress, delete specific directories, upload, go to some /install folder on the page, then delete more directories.... Why is this so vastly different (and complex) compared to every other software I've done up to now?

Not saying one is right or not. But the divide seems really big and both parties don't seem to appreciate this fact.
There is a huge difference in updating an app on you phone and updating/running a board. The former is about you as an end user, while the latter is about you as a facilitator.

You can simply go to you local shop and buy a bread. You don't have to consider recipies, food safety, profit, etc. But as the local baker, you have to, to ensure your customers a good and healthy bread as well as a solid income for yourself.

As a board owner, you are the baker. Not the customer. You might eat your own bread (like posting on your board), but you have the extra responsibilities that require some knowledge.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by P_I » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:33 pm

warmweer wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:11 pm
invenio wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm
It's because many people that want to run a bulletin board are not IT professionals or knowledgeable about running servers.
Seems they aren't knowledgeable about reading either.
phpBB.com (and us) share some of the blame here. Installation/upgrade instructions are spread all over phpbb.com and there doesn't seem to be any consistency nor attempts to link back to any sort of "official" instructions. I've reported this, [WEBSITE-1309] Need a central and therefore consistent documentation of upgrade procedure.
warmweer wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:11 pm
invenio wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm
Nor do they want to be.
They don't have to be, it's their choice. But just pressing a button with automated installs, not really knowing what's going to happen and nothing to fall back on when things don't go the expected way: who is really to blame here?
Again, I'd suggest shared blame here too. I concur with the viewpoint in [PHPBB3-14968] Version check marks 3.1.10 boards as outdated that board admins see the board outdated message in their ACP and the recommendations it makes without any knowledge of the discussions/recommendations that are being made on phpBB.com.

phpBB 3.1.10 still has a longish lifetime and phpBB 3.2.0 has just been released, so there's no real rush to push board admins into upgrading, yet that's what their ACP is telling them they should do.

That said, anecdotal evidence from the support forums indicates that far too many board admins don't seem to follow prudent practices to backup everything first and test the upgrade procedure they're going to follow on a non-live board. If problems arise, they are frustrated because the upgrade failed, their board isn't functioning and they have no backup plan to restore the known working setup. I have very little sympathy for someone who puts themselves in this situation.

Bottom line: Back it up, test it in a non-live environment and then deploy it to your membership when your comfortable that everything is working.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by david63 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:48 pm

There is never going to be agreement on this and both sides are going to have to "agree to disagree" as neither is right and neither is wrong.

There is one side that comprises, basically, of two groups;

- 1 "Old timers" who have come up the long way and had no other option than to learn all the skills required to run a website, be it a forum or some other type.
- 2 Those who are technical "savvy" and have an interest in such things.

Then there is the other side, again comprising of two groups;

- 1 The "modern" generation who have grown up with modern day devices and applications where everything is "one click"
- 2 Those who are not technically "savvy" and need everything spelling out in words of one syllable.

It is like everything else in life - if you don't know the basics then how do you know if the result is right? You can compare this with leaning your multiplication tables at school so that you know if the result on your calculator (be that a smartphone app or not) is correct.
invenio wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm
Do you backup your Microsoft office files when you upgrade to a new version?
Yes - having learnt from experience when I lost all my files once. Actually I back up ALL data/configuration files on a regular basis or at least have a file structure that ensures there are multiple copies of the files. It is called EXPERIENCE.

The same applies to a smartphone - if you do not backup your important data then you run the risk of loosing it - your choice.
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Re: why is it ALWAYS such a headache to upgrade this software???

Post by warmweer » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:11 pm

david63 wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:48 pm
invenio wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:55 pm
Do you backup your Microsoft office files when you upgrade to a new version?
Yes - having learnt from experience when I lost all my files once. Actually I back up ALL data/configuration files on a regular basis or at least have a file structure that ensures there are multiple copies of the files. It is called EXPERIENCE.
I didn't want to comment on that question, thinking I may be the only dinosaur here. Seems we're not extinct yet. 8-)
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