What is your opinon on dark styles?

[DV1]

I hope the moderators will understand that this post is not for requesting an to answer a specific question but rather to get different views from members.

Most everyone here on this board is familiar with the dark styles of phpBB which can be found in the styles database. I'm working on a dark 'child style' as some of you may have noticed from another posting of mine. It's basically in progress and I will keep on refining it till it seems just right - at least right to me.

But the thing about dark styles is I wonder how many people really use them. This is not to say that the dark styles I've seen by some members are questionable, in fact many show a good sense of design. What I think about is the experience of it for the readers where everything is basically white (or a near enough shade of white) on black.

For example, the main page of a dark style can be cool enough but then when I get to the postings page I wonder about reading long tracts of white text on a black background. Sure, the mind gets readily adjusted to it but in some ways it doesn't do much for me.

What I've thought of doing is making the main page the dark theme but where the postings go do a lighter black on white, perhaps a black on a gray background or other darker, neutral tone; a kind of halfway presentation between light and dark.

Should a dark style be totally dark in all features (editor, posts page, etc.), or is a balanced light and dark preferable? Yes, I figure some will say I can make it any way I want. Still, I'd like to hear what others think about the aspects of a dark style.

Thank You

Daniel V.

[EA117]

I don't know if the opinion is unique or not, but for me "dark style" is because I'm otherwise normally using my whole entire computer in a mode which isn't "screaming at my eyes" because I'm already in a modestly-lit office. Meaning I already have Windows 10 set to dark mode, already have a dark desktop, already open Microsoft Office and other common applications with dark mode set, and now here I am ready to visit my phpBB site.

The option to go dark seems to be what's important to me, as opposed to "let's make a fixed choice that everyone can agree on." Not a forced decision of "everyone visiting must be dark, because that's my site's choice." Although that certainly could be how the site decides to approach this, too.

From that perspective, I would come down on the side of "no one choosing dark is looking for mixed-dark." If I'm choosing the dark option, it's because I want it dark, including reading and writing. But that's from the user's perspective, not from the phpBB site operator's perspective.

"Mixed-dark" sounds like something that must be considered when you're not giving the users any choice in the matter. And still want your site to "look dark" in some regards for everyone, but cater to still presenting some kind of paper-white for reading or writing messages.

So that's where I would say the decision road diverges: Are you going to make a single-mode style, or a "can be light or dark" style?

I love Christian's prosilver dark, but would offer it as a choice to the users; i.e. both "light prosilver" and "dark prosilver" offered for selection in the UCP. The styles which already offer this as a user-controlled "switch" -- i.e. offer a "light/dark" UI switch element on the screen, and cookie the user's choice to present it that way in the future, and dynamically switch CSS as necessary to implement the choice if the current user viewing the site -- is the way to do it "as a single style" without forcing the users to accept the site owner's "light" versus "dark" choice. It's also important do to it this way if you want to give guest users a choice of whether they're lurking your site in light or dark mode.

I haven't invested the time to make the dynamic "light versus dark" switch, but do have users able to switch in the UCP between the "light" and "dark" versions of our single site style. Note this is mostly Mazeltof's great work and not my own. But as you can see, "dark means dark", and if they didn't want it dark, they would have chosen "light":

read.png

compose.png

front.png

[warmweer]

Just a quick word (since it's dark right now, and I need to go and close my eyes
The absence of a dark style being delivered in the default phpBB version is something I've missed for a long time, and I've been struggling with the css to make something acceptable for myself, using prosilver.
Lately a couple of dark styles have been made (some even released I think) and although I applaud that and one of them is actually my favourite style (Elements), the problem remains that the next phpBB update means that I have to wait for the update of that style, or switch to another updated style, or even forget about a dark style until one is updated.

I'm not sure whether it's feasible to make a switch light/dark which will work on every style (or better: which will give a result acceptable to the majority), but it's certainly something to think about (and as EA117 suggested, give the guest user the possibility of switching).

As to how dark it should be? pfff, it's something very difficult to quantify. I want dark but with high contrast and most importantly I want the letters to remain very sharp, even when decreasing or increasing size, and dark seems to reduce sharpness almost all the time (perhaps my eyes aren't as fresh as they used to be).

The botttom line is that it's just impossible to please everyone and that a light/dark switch (as a default feature) is about the most one can expect/hope for. As to more specific wishes: there's no way a default style will cater for everyone's wishes, so my guess is that the style developer should make the style to his/her liking, and yes take phpbb-member wishes into account but make sure the style remains pleasing to the developer, if it isn't it's probably not going to be kept updated very long.

[PlanetStyles.net]

I love Christian's prosilver dark

Aw, shucks

But the thing about dark styles is I wonder how many people really use them

I understand this isn't a reliable measure of user preference, but Prosilver Dark has accumulated 10,000 downloads in 39 days, which is around 250 downloads daily.

For comparison, Absolution which is the most-downloaded style (excluding Prosilver SE) with nearly 100k downloads has averaged 27 daily downloads since 2010.

And so the appetite is clear to see. Additionally, at PlanetStyles we don't collect analytics data on what configuration options people choose, but before we added dark variants to Milk, a dark version was the most requested feature. And now a front-end switcher between light/dark has become the most frequently requested.

So to answer the question: Should you go dark? Yes! Absolutely!

Should a dark style be totally dark in all features (editor, posts page, etc.), or is a balanced light and dark preferable?

This is the ultimate question that makes all the difference. Prior to releasing prosilver dark I'd just read this article, which I would recommend: https://www.toptal.com/designers/ui/dark-ui . It kind of speaks for itself, but making dark styles 'readable' is a huge challenge in phpBB. There is clutter everywhere you look, and it's exceptionally tricky to subtly blend that into the background while making the content sing.

[Lumpy Burgertushie]

I would bet that 90% of those downloads are for game sites.

I never did understand why a game site always has to be dark.

personally I like the look of some dark styles but they make my eyes very tired after just a few minutes.
this has been true for me for several years not just since I got to be an old man.

robert

[Forex Station]

Dark styles are good if done properly but honestly, every time I visit a dark forum it just doesn't seem as easy to navigate or as "clear" as a standard white one. It's a bit hard to explain but white is always the easiest to work with and the best.

[PlanetStyles.net]

I never did understand why a game site always has to be dark.

Light websites are hard to read when the lights are off and curtains closed at lunch time

[DV1]

Thank you all for the responses thus far.

I'm otherwise normally using my whole entire computer in a mode which isn't "screaming at my eyes"...

The glare factor. Yes, a darker presentation on the monitor reduces the fatigue that comes from glare especially if you're someone that uses a computer a lot such as at home and at work. I have a friend who lives in LA who for years I would invite to forums or let him know about particular presentations online. That was to little avail and then one day he just said that he spends all day at work using a computer (he works in data at a bank's headquarters) so by the time he gets home he really has no desire to spend much time with the screen. Understandable.

If I'm choosing the dark option, it's because I want it dark, including reading and writing.

I considered that too. To the dark 'faithful' I guess it would be all or nothing. To go from the main page to the postings and then see the standard black on white might be a bit irritating. Makes me wonder how many out there just go for dark mode in everything online simply because visually it's not as demanding. Personally, if I'm on the computer at night I have sufficient external lighting to counter the glare.
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warmweer,

..the problem remains that the next phpBB update means that I have to wait for the update of that style...

Yes, that's why I eventually decided to just alter the prosilver for myself so I wouldn't have to wait for such. Then again, the designers of styles have their own lives apart from this and so the urgency to update their style is understandably secondary. But just in case, to all designers of styles I say, good work, and I look forward to the new designs.

I'm not sure whether it's feasible to make a switch light/dark which will work on every style...

EA117 also mentioned a switch but it seems to me that for something like that in place it would take a lot of restructuring from the back end of things. I've actually learned something about php from the years that I've used phpBB but I have no idea how they would code something that no matter what style there would be such a switch feature. They could very well offer to just do it to the basic prosilver but how would the switch work with derivative designs and such? I leave that to the capable developers of phpBB, maybe the 'Area 51' elite. By the way, I don't know much about that 'Area 51' but the actual one which as the bird flies is 82 miles northwest of where I live is not too friendly with unexpected visitors. Who knows, maybe phpBB is really alien technology that was reverse-engineered. Consider the following image from the area of A51:



Even though there are buildings, I have no idea what the heck that hexagonal array was used for. Could that be where phpBB had its origins? We'll never know.

This link will take you to the Google map page where you can zoom/move around (collapse side panel for larger view). If you do, then the following image shows where A51 is located 54 miles southeast of the hexagonal site.


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Christian,

..Prosilver Dark has accumulated 10,000 downloads in 39 days..

That's something and it certainly speaks of a preference. And it's telling that a light/dark switch is frequently requested. Makes the challenge of finding that balance in 'one' design interesting.

So to answer the question: Should you go dark? Yes! Absolutely!

Well, I'm tempted to say something about the Kardashians - but I won't.

Light websites are hard to read when the lights are off and curtains closed at lunch time

Christian, that's way too much information. I think we'll also let that go.
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Lumpy Burgertushie,

I like the look of some dark styles but they make my eyes very tired after just a few minutes.

Yes, Forex Station seems to echo this and to an extent I have also experienced an effort at reading long tracts of text with such.
__________

Anyway, I will continue with my experimentation. Whatever develops from that I will post in this thread.

Daniel V.

[EA117]

For what it's worth, I'm referring to a light/dark switch that the style itself implements. Not something dependent on phpBB support or involvement.

Styles already have style-specific Javascript, and we're talking about using Javascript to persist and read a cookie specific to the style. Based upon whether the cookie exists and how its set, an additional <link href="{T_THEME_PATH}/dark.css?assets_version={T_ASSETS_VERSION}" rel="stylesheet"> or similar stylesheet reference would be included in the HTML document being rendered.

So from a style development perspective, aside from the actual Javascript coding, the main design point is "the style is setup to be in one mode by default, but able to switch to a different mode simply by the inclusion of an additional CSS style sheet." Similar to how styles support different coloring options by including an additional CSS sheet to override just the needed styling; but in this case we're talking about overriding what is needed to switch the style from light mode to dark mode.

Somewhere I've already seen exactly this being done. But I can't swear it was in a phpBB style or some other application's style.

[PlanetStyles.net]

Somewhere I already saw exactly that being done. But I can't swear it was in a phpBB style or some other application's style.

We have the functionality for this, written and ready to rock and roll (see: https://streamable.com/jow43). Preferences are stored in a cookie.

Unfortunately there are some occasional flickering issues that occur between the default being loaded and the cookie being read then applied. In the end I decided against including it in our live products until I could optimise things enough to prevent the flicker.

A UCP-based option and reading the user preference from the database is a better option IMO, but much less easy to implement.

[Gumboots]

A UCP-based option and reading the user preference from the database is a better option IMO, but much less easy to implement.

It's a good idea, but really would have to be built in as a default feature. It's a bit much for an extension. The codebase would have to be done to support variants of a given style, and then anyone could call that into their own style by using whatever variables, with the stylesheet being selected by PHP (based on a stored value in the db) before all the page code is sent out to the browser.

Some other apps do this, so it's certainly possible, and it does make for solid changes between variants with no trace of flickering at any point. If the devs are feeling bored because they have nothing else to do*, it would be worth looking into this.

*Don't shoot me.

[Gumboots]

Should a dark style be totally dark in all features (editor, posts page, etc.), or is a balanced light and dark preferable? Yes, I figure some will say I can make it any way I want. Still, I'd like to hear what others think about the aspects of a dark style.

Don't try to mix and match. By attempting to please everyone you'll end up annoying everyone. As the old saying goes, you can't please all of the people all of the time.

If you are only providing one option (which is obviously the least work for an admin) make it a good one that is consistent with a given concept all the way through. If you want people to have more options, do the same with each option.

One thing I find is that contrast on dark styles is a problem. People naturally think of black text on white background for light styles, so then seem to think that white text on black background (or something close to it) makes sense for dark styles. I find it almost unreadable. It's far too harsh. I prefer to keep contrast levels near the WCAG AAA minimum standard, and to keep this constant across the whole page as much as possible. I'm currently running a customised version of Christian's Prosilver Dark, and am using #aaa body text on the #242a36 post background, because I found this was much easier for me to live with than the default #ccc.

TBH I prefer to do the same with light styles too. Black on white is too much a lot of the time. Something like #555 on #fcfcfc is perfectly clear and a lot easier on my eyes.

People often seem to think that the way to make things legible is to go for higher contrast. I'm of the option that the problem is often something else: choice of font, font size, line height, general clutter, etc. Adequate line height is particularly important as length of the lines increases.

[DV1]

An article which some of you may have not read:

Dark mode isn't as good for your eyes as you believe

The article doesn't make me shy away from dark mode, in fact, it just makes me more interested in finding a design balance.

[Tastenplayer]

style developer should make the style to his/her liking, and yes take phpbb-member wishes into account but make sure the style remains pleasing to the developer, if it isn't it's probably not going to be kept updated very long.

So with e.g. Notepad++ and the style changes it should be possible for everyone to execute a style update in a normal update series. You mark the line to be replaced or deleted - Notepad++ returns You copy the line to be replaced and paste it into the gap.
When I started my first style, no one thought they would ever reach the phpBB.com database.

Concerning dark Style:
If it's a stark black or blue style with bright white lettering, people with eyes like mine are in serious trouble. I could hardly be in such a forum.
But is the same with generally flashy colors. Even very white styles can cause problems like flickering eyes. The worst thing is definitely the most red tones.

Dark mode isn't as good for your eyes as you believe

That's definitely true. But it also depends a lot on the font colour used.
It also depends on the display setting. And you have no influence on these settings, neither as a style creator nor as a forum operator. Most styles look completely different with my notebook than with my desktop PC. Even though the screen is now exactly the same.

Add several styles in your forum, then each member can choose the style that suits him best. It is impossible to please everyone if you only have one style in your forum.

[Hanakin]

I am a huge fan of a dark theme. It easier on the eyes despite what people say, just not for every situation or the reason most believe. But its not easy like christian pointed out there is a lot to consider. So providing the tools to help the style authors out is something that is necessary to help.

the way forward with this is too have different css files or query based changes based on the user OS preference with an option for always dark theme as well. This way we cover our basses. I am planning for all of this with the development of base-l the underlying framework for chameleon. That way chameleon and all the themes from then on can make use of it. https://github.com/hanakin/base-l/blob/ ... fault.scss there is currently one variable toggle for rendering out a light or dark version of all the css. It will be used in the next update to chameleon...0.2.0 The other side will be to add in the dark media query alts into the light version of the theme. I need to find a clean way to automate this.