Time and contents guaranteed.

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wmorg
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by wmorg »

warmweer wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:25 pm
wmorg wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:26 pm Suppose someone wants to discuss a patentable idea with other people.

And like this are many many others; claim the originality of ideas, analysis, etc.
And ??? If I patent that idea before you, there's not much you'll be able to do about it. It's your word against mine and I've got 3 witnesses who recommended I take a patent on my idea because they saw that someone else was taking credit for it. 8-)

IMHO that is going very far in terms of laws and rights, both internationally and on national and local laws of the world.

In history there have been quite a few lawsuits over patent rights with all the results depending on various circumstances, and of course, being able to prove the originality of an idea is a lot.

In any case, even if the patent was lost, having the idea certified in time before any other, at least one will have something very important: the originality of the idea.

On all this, as I said at the beginning of this message, there have been many disputes in history, some famous ones were carried out by Edison and Tesla, as you surely know.

And again In any case, lets think in the many many different cases where certify de contents and link them to a moment is important. In my opinión it is interesting and useful. Perhaps the time will put the issue in its place........

Just different points of view.

Thanks, regards.
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by KevC »

Surely if you had some great idea that you were going to patent, the last place you would announce it before you got the job done is on a public forum!

I don't ever remember anyone asking for such a thing before in all the years I've been on here so I can't see it being implemented as standard. You might try for an extension request but again you'd be a bit hard pushed to find someone to make it as you're the only customer.
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wmorg
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by wmorg »

KevC wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:16 pm I don't ever remember anyone asking for such a thing before in all the years I've been on here

Most, if not all, breakthrough ideas have a beginning.

Thank you for your feedback.
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Lumpy Burgertushie
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie »

the biggest problem is that there is no way to really certify anything you post that is any better than the built in time stamp.

there is no central certification authority etc.
just because someone creates some type of extension that says "ok, this post is certified to have been posted on such and such a date and such and such a time " legally means nothing more that showing the built in time stamp already here.

who gets to say what "certified" means legally?

this is like having a form online that says are you over 18? there is no way possible to check that to make sure the poster is not lying about it.

same with any kind of certification thing .

it is an interesting idea, I can see there could be a use for it but just like the age verification thing, there is no way to verify it.

luck,
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wmorg
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by wmorg »

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:10 am the biggest problem is that there is no way to really certify anything you post that is any better than the built in time stamp.

there is no central certification authority etc.
just because someone creates some type of extension that says "ok, this post is certified to have been posted on such and such a date and such and such a time " legally means nothing more that showing the built in time stamp already here.

who gets to say what "certified" means legally?

this is like having a form online that says are you over 18? there is no way possible to check that to make sure the poster is not lying about it.

same with any kind of certification thing .

it is an interesting idea, I can see there could be a use for it but just like the age verification thing, there is no way to verify it.

luck,
robert

I completely disagree, mate.

Trusted third parties, such as notaries, are already established in the digital age. There are official TSAs that certify what has been proposed.

Perhaps it would be necessary to adjust some operation from the technical point of view, nothing more.

And on the other hand: are you denying the technical consistency of bitcoin through blockchain (for example)?

What has been proposed is technically possible today. It would only be necessary to debug the functionalities and their implementation, by the hand of a TSA.

Thank you.
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

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Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:10 am the biggest problem is that there is no way to really certify anything...
This is exactly the purpose of a time-stamping authority; to provide a time stamp which can be proven, to the extent of the trust given to the provider. Even the Windows computer sitting in front of you wouldn't allow itself to boot, were it not for the verifiable time stamps present in the code-signing signatures on the kernel-mode drivers.

It's not "just a time stamp", which therefore would be "no different than the time stamp value phpBB is already providing." It's a time stamp, provided by a trusted provider, which is then wrapped in a publicly-verifiable certificate-based signature. Proving that the contained time stamp value is (a) unmodified, and (b) came from the trusted provider.

There is no technical dispute as to the purpose and validity of a time-stamping authority. Nor any technical dispute for how a public blockchain could provide an immutable and verifiable ledger of the content added to a site and when. The only dispute is how broad or beneficial the use case would be to phpBB users and site operators at large.

Given that this doesn't solve any long-standing or common problem among phpBB sites, and given the significant overheads to implementing and providing this capability, there is no reason to expect this might show up as a core phpBB functionality; no matter how well the idea gets expressed. Not that this should stop anyone who wants the functionality, since no one need agree with you in order to write and provide this functionality.
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by HaioPaio »

Thank you, EA117
Some posts make me think „ you'd have better kept silent“. Your post is a good positive example of how it should be.
I agree with your conclusion and thank you for removing the fog.
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by david63 »

One major concern that I would have with using a TSA would be the long term reliability. In my experience many third party services such as this, especially if it is a "free" offering, is liable to disappear overnight or change its T&Cs such that it becomes inoperable
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by AmigoJack »

wmorg wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 ama TSA (Time Stamping Authority)
EA117 wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:29 ama time-stamping authority
...
provided by a trusted provider
I understand the concept and the advantages of it. For me this only shifts problems, as then the authority's trust must be questioned and its existence is a permanent requirement. In the past SSL root certificates and certificate authorities (such as Comodo) were trusted, and then turned out to be anything but trustworthy.

From experience I can tell boards or even only parts of it are subject to migrations (upgrade, import) that come with tiny or huge differences - and although the rendering of one post may be the same afterwards the way it is stored can differ a lot. At this point detail questions come up and will mostly lead to the answer "it was modified, tho" and the trusted timestamp is gone for good although rendering-wise nothing changed.

It might have been less irritating for other readers if explanations like "what is hash chaining or linked timestamping" would have been linked right away (pun intended: internet is all about links, not just text).
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by [Dimetrodon] »

I don't think phpBB needs the 'power' of the blockchain, and it reads to me like this has the goal to make NFTs out of forum topics, or at the very least, something similar.

Becoming web 3.0 is not what phpBB needs, especially when many web 3.0 projects are scammy to say the least. I don't see the need for topic creation to be similar to the minting of NFTs and Crypto, nor would such features really protect content creators.
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by Mick »

Do like parts of the music industry has for years. Put your idea down on paper or digital medium and post it to yourself by registered mail. Don’t open the packaging until you require proof of conception.
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by [Dimetrodon] »

Mick wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:09 am Do like parts of the music industry has for years. Put your idea down on paper or digital medium and post it to yourself by registered mail. Don’t open the packaging until you require proof of conception.
OP seems to think that as long as you have the data on the blockchain, you have control over the information, even if it's public. This is of course false, but not only that, but there are lots of ways that blockchain wallets (crypto and NFT wallets) have been compromised with malware and thus had their coins and NFTs stolen.

So yes, ideas that are valuable shouldn't be immediately posted publicly. Honestly, it would be disgraceful for the phpBB project to embrace the blockchain.
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by wmorg »

[Dimetrodon] wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:53 pm So yes, ideas that are valuable shouldn't be immediately posted publicly. Honestly, it would be disgraceful for the phpBB project to embrace the blockchain.

Just to say that this topic "Time and contents guaranteed." is not uniquely linked to blockchains. Given the nuance, the focus, of the last comments (blockchains at all), I think it is not appropriate to go into the other ways, which in fact were the ones I was thinking of when I opened the topic.

Anyway; thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Post by [Dimetrodon] »

Please note that I didn't just ignore or gloss over them, but rather, they do strike also me as tying in very closely to NFTs, even though they're not the same. As in content that cannot be duplicated. Especially when verifying something took place on a specific date and also seeming to involve the imposing security measures to ensure that is the correct date and origin point of the content in question.

While phpBB is free and open source, and you are free to overhaul your copy into doing what you described, it's just not an ideal change for most users to justify it being in the core.

Kind Regards,

[D]
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Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

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Mick wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:09 am Do like parts of the music industry has for years. Put your idea down on paper or digital medium and post it to yourself by registered mail. Don’t open the packaging until you require proof of conception.
I'm not a lawyer Mick but the first argument I'm going to make is that there is no way to verify that has remained sealed. Secondly whether that can provide proof of authorship or not it doesn't apply to an idea.

Creative works are copyrighted (text, video, images, sculptures etc.) In the US copyright is automatically granted upon creation, registering doesn't necessarily prove authorship but does supply some benefits like increased damages if the infringement occurs after registration and you successfully sue.

Ideas need to be patented and there is a lengthy process and conditions for that. You can't just simply have an idea, you need to be able to demonstrate it. I'm pretty sure in most cases it will be the early bird to the patent office that gets the worm. It would be impossible to prove your idea wasn't independently thought of by someone else unless you were a mind reader.
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