So Why is Frontpage Evil?

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Ska4Christ
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So Why is Frontpage Evil?

Post by Ska4Christ » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:44 pm

Hey Guys,

Just wondering, what exactly do programs like Frontpage and Dreamweaver mess up when you use them to edit your files? I know I've heard not to use them, but I'm wondering... why?
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Post by rick` » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:52 pm

Generally because of the non-standards bloated and poorly formed code that gets used.
They seem to be the main reason. Mainly for FrontPage. DreamWeaver isn't that made (specially when you're working with embeded flash and javascript (apparently)).

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Post by smithy_dll » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:27 pm

Because in order to use them properly, you have to understand what it's outputting, and why it's outputting that. (just like any other field of stuff)

Sadly most people who use them have no clue as to what they are doing, which is where all the horror stories come from.

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Post by pentapenguin » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:07 am

FrontPage especially is bad for three reasons:

1) It generates Internet Explorer optimized code. Even though 70-80%+ of net users unfortunately(!) use IE, this is still no reason to leave people that use other browsers out in the cold with IE only code. It's just plain rude in my book to design a site that only works properly in one browser (of course you may not be able to show everything in all browsers but the site should at least be usable in any browser).

2) FrontPage doesn't support web standards. This goes with point 1. If you use web standards, then most browsers will more or less display the site as intended.

3) It generates boatloads of code. No exaggeration -- FrontPage may take 2-3 pages of code to produce a tiny page which means lots of bandwidth usage. While this isn't as big as a problem as it used to be since web hosts give GBs of transfer, but all that code takes longer to download and display.
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Post by Govnor » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:43 am

I have found that when you make changes, particularly to tables, WYSIWYG editors seem to 'forget' to delete certain lines of code.
The < p > tag is often attributed to a css class when you copy & paste text into a table cell.
It looks neatly aligned in the editor, and if you preview in firefox, it is intelligent enough to know you have used a crap editor, and aligns things as you intended.
View it in Idiot Explorer however, and it will show up the flaws & will appear skew wiff.

Of the two best known, dreamweaver (IMO) is definately the best behaved, and you can go into code view & start learning how to handcode quite quickly, then use either method with just one editor :-)
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Post by ChaosBringer » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:14 pm

Yep, i either use Context, Zend Development Enviroment(for php), EditPlus, or plain old notepad. Sometimes, just sometimes, i use coffeecup html editor.
And even that has crapcode that you need to take out of your final page...

01000001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101100 01101111 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110101 01110011 00100001

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Post by Lone-wolf » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:45 pm

And lets not forget the crappy file publishing of FrontPage, i only use Dreamweaver for file publishing and minor editing.

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Post by niksa » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:55 am

I think they make it much more complicated than necessary. It truly does produce way more code for a single action than is necessary, so it becomes a hassle to maintain manually.

Plus, like pentapenguin said, it's optimized for IE, which is, sure, the browser of choice currently... but it's not necessary to have that kind of built-in exclusion.

If I need an html editor, I use coffeecup editor, personally. It's more manageable, imo.

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Post by Julian123 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:21 pm

its not functional beyond itself
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Post by Ska4Christ » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:51 pm

Well, yeah, I can see where the problems come in with those that don't know the code themselves. (Horror Stories as someone said... ) I understand it pretty well myself, it's just quicker to use a WYSIWYG editor sometimes, not to mention the file transfer is rather simple. I definitely know about the excess code... I try to go in and remove a lot of it when I use Frontpage.

One thing I never could figure out... it always seems to remove the tags for the title in my phpBB files! :evil:

Also, I recently aquired Dreamweaver; its not as bad?
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Post by Ramon Fincken » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:08 pm

I always use a txt editor, but for graphical stuff I use my FP.

I never ever had any problem editing phpBB files with FP.
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Post by mw-dnb » Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:01 pm

i write all my stuff on notebook paper, optimize it for aol's web browser, then send it in to my ISP on punch cards just to make sure the code is perfect.

ok all jokes aside, the only thing you need to know about frontpage is that it has no standard but MS's standard - which is rapidly being turned over by other browsers that DO support the industry standards.

if you are looking for a EDITOR get simple apps like what most of the people above mentioned. If you are looking for a full on web dev. IDE (integrated development environment) get Dreamweaver. It is the industry standard period.

If you are a total novice then don't get frontpage or dreamweaver - get a book or pay someone to make your site for you.
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Post by Saeru » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:44 pm

Only thing I use frontpage for is copying my raw writtings to it. no HTML.. just my writtings. So all the paragraphs and such are automatically done and with a little editing in notepad can be placed on my site..

aside that.. I hate frontpage.. x.x
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Post by txuspe » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:24 pm

I unistalled FP years ago... 8)

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Post by Subsim » Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:03 am

Front Page works fine, this isn't fine art, ya know ;)

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